Australian Carp Article

[Vagabond]

If you headed south from Croydon, Den, you would be in the Crawley/Horsham area - somewhat to the west of me. Its still an old Wealden Iron area though, there is a "Hammer Pond" at Mannings Heath, and a "Furnace Pond" at Lower Beeding.

 

The furnaces and forges were often very small oufits - remember we are talking cottage industries in late Tudor times. No huge ironworks a la Charles Dickens - so it is not surprising you saw little evidence.

 

The Crawley/Horsham area is in deepish Wealden clay - relatively deeper, slower streams. Further east we have alternate layers of sandstone and clay, giving shallower and faster streams. I had the opportunity to fish the headwaters of three rivers, ie Medway. the Sussex Ouse and Uck system, and the Eastern Rother which met at a triple watershed point south of Tunbridge Wells. The Cuckmere headwaters were only a short distance away.

 

The best has gone. Carp lakes took care of two of my best streams, a pig farm and its outfall (aren't pigs some form of four-legged air-breathing carp ? ) saw off another, and most of the rest have changed hands and I no longer know the owners.

 

So I am down to just two or three streams, the location of which wild horses would fail to drag from me.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Vagabond

[Phone]

Gozzer,

 

Ha ha, you think Vagabond needs help? I guess I'll have to count you among the "gazillions" that beleive carp are the "cause" which simply isn't true. Carp can be the result of a fishery "gone to ell in a hand basket" but never the cause. When you say "after" I believe you are practicing "Phoneizms". It is Not likely - "In the waters known to me, there wasn't a decline in numbers of other fish, until after the carp were stocked." (my emphasis) You are drawing a conclusion that is no fault of the carp or of nature. I can't attest to human behavioUrs or the conditions of the post carp pond maintainance.

 

Your conclusion " --- BUT --- it's their introduction in numbers that makes the water "crappy". I can only assume you mean the pond caretakers. Carp don't do that!!!!!

 

Phone

[gozzer]

Gozzer,

 

Ha ha, you think Vagabond needs help? I guess I'll have to count you among the "gazillions" that beleive carp are the "cause" which simply isn't true. Carp can be the result of a fishery "gone to ell in a hand basket" but never the cause. When you say "after" I believe you are practicing "Phoneizms". It is Not likely - "In the waters known to me, there wasn't a decline in numbers of other fish, until after the carp were stocked." (my emphasis) You are drawing a conclusion that is no fault of the carp or of nature. I can't attest to human behavioUrs or the conditions of the post carp pond maintainance.

 

Your conclusion " --- BUT --- it's their introduction in numbers that makes the water "crappy". I can only assume you mean the pond caretakers. Carp don't do that!!!!!

 

Phone

 

Who's muddying the waters now Phone?

 

The waters I know, were fishing well, with a balance of species that had existed successfully for many years, until the 'powers that be' decided to stock with a large number of carp. So whether you blame those who stock carp, or the actions of the carp themselves, the end result is the same. A water that is so "crappy" that few other species can thrive in it.

As I said earlier, the version of 'carp' on your side of the pond, must be different to those on this side...or...the waters you have make them behave different.

 

John.

 

PS, Vagabond doesn't need any help from the likes of me, we came to similar conclusions quite separately, from many miles apart. Or don't you believe that two people can disagree with you?

Edited August 29, 2011 by gozzer

[Phone]

gozzer,

 

Well, frankly, it is difficult to think that even one person can disagree with me.

 

What do you suppose went wrong in Europe for the last few thousand years Those water's are (were) clear as gin with carp as the dominate species.

 

I believe it is your power of observation and the presence of carp. Perhaps, you were a tad prejudice or had an unfavorable opinion in the first place. Now you are asking me to "fortune tell" what you thought you saw. Even Phone isn't that good.

 

Carp don't do that!

 

Phone

[gozzer]

gozzer,

 

Well, frankly, it is difficult to think that even one person can disagree with me.

 

What do you suppose went wrong in Europe for the last few thousand years Those water's are (were) clear as gin with carp as the dominate species.

 

I believe it is your power of observation and the presence of carp. Perhaps, you were a tad prejudice or had an unfavorable opinion in the first place. Now you are asking me to "fortune tell" what you thought you saw. Even Phone isn't that good.

 

Carp don't do that!

 

Phone

 

More suppositions on your part Phone. I was not prejudiced against carp prior to the mass introductions, (and then I blame the rampant commercialism for that), in fact carp were always the pinnacle of stillwater fishing. There was a mystique surrounding the big fish that 'ghosted' through the swim, and I spent many hours fishing for them, as part of my liking for variety in my angling. My concerns now are that the variety has gone, and I can go to any of my local waters and catch carp without putting in too much effort. They are so numerous, that other species have gained the 'special' tag that used to belong to them.

You seem to forget that many of the waters over here are less than a couple of acres in size, (often less than one acre), and a 10 acre fishery is considered a quite large area of water. In fact many anglers have never fished a water bigger than what you would call a puddle.

 

John.

[Dick Dastardly]

Got to admit that as Den says many many waters in Kent are now over run with stunted "silver" fish.Certainly as many at least as waters that are over run by carp!

 

Trouble is that I honestly believe that this explosion of silvers is once again the fault of the carp and "carp machine"! I will explain,

 

So many waters are now so focused on carp that the whole "management policy" revolves around them! (normally this "policy" is just introduction of more and more carp!) Other fish other than "nuisance" species (ie the likes of tench and bream that take carpers baits) simply don't "exist" to the carp orientated management or their anglers. As such no thought is given to any policy regarding them.

 

Secondly artificially high numbers of silver fish are only viable due to the "enrichment" of these waters through all the carp bait thrown in!

[Phone]

gozzer,

 

And, it sounds like many course fishermen agree. To quote gozzer, ""I was not prejudiced against carp prior to the mass introductions"".

 

It doesn't look like were arguing "suppositions" but rather semantics. I can only speak to the natural biological habits of the species. How, why, in what manner who, when or where they were "introduced" is a political statement. Carp are just fish - not politicians. So don't blame the common carp cause your !issed at the human Leadership.

 

And, once established, carp can certainly take over. Never would I say they can't. They need controls where artifical, un-natural, excessive or otherwise unhealthy introduction has taken place (so would pike). Not sure extermination is a "control" for bad politics however. You want to "blame" the species. IMO - A rather shallow position. Carp in their NATURAL environment keep a tidy home. Left to their own devices they don't chit in their own mess kit anymore than most native wildlife. Oddly, when stressed they "overspawn" and can even spawn more than once a year.

 

You're at the top of the food chain - eat em'. Just don't tell me your disdane is in the name of "Sport".

 

Phone

Edited August 30, 2011 by Phone

[gozzer]

gozzer,

 

And, it sounds like many course fishermen agree. To quote gozzer, ""I was not prejudiced against carp prior to the mass introductions"".

 

It doesn't look like were arguing "suppositions" but rather semantics. I can only speak to the natural biological habits of the species. How, why, in what manner who, when or where they were "introduced" is a political statement. Carp are just fish - not politicians. So don't blame the common carp cause your !issed at the human Leadership.

 

And, once established, carp can certainly take over. Never would I say they can't. They need controls where artifical, un-natural, excessive or otherwise unhealthy introduction has taken place (so would pike). Not sure extermination is a "control" for bad politics however. You want to "blame" the species. IMO - A rather shallow position. Carp in their NATURAL environment keep a tidy home. Left to their own devices they don't chit in their own mess kit anymore than most native wildlife. Oddly, when stressed they "overspawn" and can even spawn more than once a year.

 

You're at the top of the food chain - eat em'. Just don't tell me your disdane is in the name of "Sport".

 

Phone

 

Phone, at last we are reading from the same page. I'm not blaming a fish, I've always blamed the inane stocking policies of the last 20 to 30yrs. That, and the fact that it's been supported by many anglers, who have been seduced by the commercial interests, and the prospect of easier fishing. This spills over into other areas and the situation grows and grows.

I'll give an example of one of the popular fishing complexes not too far from me. I saw on another forum that someone had mentioned a fish kill on one of the 'lakes' there. The owner, (and a couple of others that knew the place well), said it was nothing to worry about, because the casualties were only 80 barbel, (a fish found naturally in running water). It seemed the barbel were used as a monitor for low DO levels, and were the first to suffer, (similar to the canary in the mine). An automatic aerator had failed, and the Do levels had dropped, but the rest of the 15tons of fish in the water were OK. The barbel have now been restocked. I've not fished this place, but from looking at maps, I would estimate that the lake was about 2 acres in size at the most!

 

Another part of the scene in the UK that you fail to understand, is that carp are protected, you can't legally catch, kill, and then eat them. There are even those that are calling for a cull on otters, because that's what they do naturally.

In some of your earlier posts, you said something about the UK being a good advert for angling. It might have been years ago, but not now. As you begin to understand more about how things are over here, I think you will realise that.

 

John.

[Worms]

Blimey John, am I suffering terrible deja vue or is it something I drank?

[gozzer]

Blimey John, am I suffering terrible deja vue or is it something I drank?

 

I've been suffering from that feeling for many years Nick, and I rarely drink alcohol.

 

I think it must be "the way I tell them", as Mr Carson used to say, I seem to struggle to get my point across. Too involved maybe.

 

John.