Israel - some facts

[Guest Brumagem Phil]

The very existence of Israel is anathema to Hamas. What is it that you would like Israel to do to appease them?

 

You are missing the point entirely.

 

Hamas only came to power becuase the west let down previous governments and the people became so fed up they voted in hamas (we've had similar discussions here regarding the BNP's popularity for similar reasons).

 

In other words we created the situation. Whats more Hamas were fairly elected in what the UN has said was a free and fair election. So waddya do steve?

 

I tell you what you do, you cut off aid payments (and wage payments as the ISraelis did) to make the situation much much worse, and in the heat of the summer the place goes up like a tinder box and you get to blame it all on hamas and hezbollah even though the whole situation was carefully orchestrated by Israel/US.

 

By the way, I was reading the other day (but cant find the article now) that most the top hamas people would be happy to acknowledge Israels right to exist but unfortunately they are all locked up in Israeli jails.

 

The cynic in me of course would also suggest a peace in the ME is not in the best interests of the US given how much it makes in arms sales tothe region.

[Steve Walker]

You are missing the point entirely.

 

I guess I am. So run it by me again, what is it that Israel needs to do in order to make peace? I can see you pointing fingers at the usual suspects, but I can't see you proposing a solution.

 

As far as Hamas and Israel's right to exist goes, I would draw your attention to the Hamas covenant (or charter) of 1988, in particular:

 

Article Six:

 

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.

Article Eleven:

 

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

 

Article Thirteen:

 

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

 

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

 

Now, please, explain to me what sort of compromise would be acceptable?

[Guest Brumagem Phil]

I guess I am. So run it by me again, what is it that Israel needs to do in order to make peace? I can see you pointing fingers at the usual suspects, but I can't see you proposing a solution.

 

As far as Hamas and Israel's right to exist goes, I would draw your attention to the Hamas covenant (or charter) of 1988, in particular:

Now, please, explain to me what sort of compromise would be acceptable?

 

You are missing the point AGAIN.

 

WE (the west) tell all the world that democracy is the right way yet when a country elects a government we dont approve of we move the goalposts.

 

Hamas will eventually HAVE to yield their position (it might help if Isreal freed the moderates of hamas that it contiunues to detain) BUT you simply cant have a situation whereby you just disregard a democratically elected governement. Israel and Hamas MUST talk to each other.

 

How can you have a compromise when you wont even talk to one of the governements involved.

 

By the way I believe this current crisis was a direct result of the west and Israel cutting off cash and aid fromthe palestinian people resulting in the upsurge in violence there and the kidnapping.

[Steve Walker]

You are missing the point AGAIN.

 

WE (the west) tell all the world that democracy is the right way yet when a country elects a government we dont approve of we move the goalposts.

 

No. That simply is not the issue, that's Western political point-scoring from the luxury of being out of rocket range. The issue is not Hamas's democratic legitimacy or mandate as a government, but their behaviour. Hama's democratic mandate no more legitimises aggression than did Nazi Germany's convoluted electoral process in the 1930's.

 

Hamas will eventually HAVE to yield their position (it might help if Isreal freed the moderates of hamas that it contiunues to detain) BUT you simply cant have a situation whereby you just disregard a democratically elected governement. Israel and Hamas MUST talk to each other.

What is there to discuss? Read article 13 again, "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.". What concession can Israel offer which will suffice? Surely you do not think that submitting it's citizens to the mediaeval brutality of Islamic law would be a fair compromise?

 

How can you have a compromise when you wont even talk to one of the governements involved.

 

How can you have a compromise when the core principle of one of the governments is the destruction of the other?

 

By the way I believe this current crisis was a direct result of the west and Israel cutting off cash and aid fromthe palestinian people resulting in the upsurge in violence there and the kidnapping.

 

Perhaps. The ongoing crisis goes deeper.

 

For what it's worth, the hand-wringing and blame-politics of some of the West in regard to this reminds me more than anything of the attitude of some North American groups to the IRA; dredging up ancient British injustices when the IRA was blowing up small boys in Warrington.

Edited August 1, 2006 by Steve Walker

[corydoras]

Are you talking about the Scots in Scotland Cory? Or the ones that live in Southampton and France?

All of us mate

 

Oh, you mean the ones that were later conquered by the Norman French?

Them's the geezers!

Edited August 1, 2006 by corydoras

[kleinboet]

O.K. guys, you've had your fun and now it is time for a reality check.

 

Firstly, a guy had a fertile imagination - camel's through eyes of needles????? I don't think you've ever opened the Bible, let alone read it!! He was using an EXPRESSION to show the impossibility, you know like "pie in the sky?"

 

Next - (I'll just deal with some as I could be here all day!) Jerusalem is mentioned in the Bible over 700 times! - can all you smart alecks who are replying so knowledgeably, tell me where in the Koran it is mentioned ONCE!! You've all read both I surmise from your postings.

 

Next - Jews pray to Jerusalem (and when in Jerusalem to the "wailing wall) Muslems to Mecca, and if in between will turn their backs on Jerusalem and pray to Mecca, does that sound like the respect for Jerusalem they claim to have?

 

Next - Are you seriously trying to tell me that Jerusalem was in Palestine? Ever??

 

Next - Hesbollah (and Hamas) deliberately choose high residential sites for their bases in the mistaken belief that the Israelis would not DARE retaliate!! The U.N. "observers" do just that, observe.

 

Next - Try reading up on Hesbollah and Hamas, who have in their very constitution the fact that their MAIN aim is to wipe Israel (and all Jews) off the map!

[Guest Brumagem Phil]

O.K. guys, you've had your fun and now it is time for a reality check.

 

Firstly, a guy had a fertile imagination - camel's through eyes of needles????? I don't think you've ever opened the Bible, let alone read it!! He was using an EXPRESSION to show the impossibility, you know like "pie in the sky?"

 

Next - Hesbollah (and Hamas) deliberately choose high residential sites for their bases in the mistaken belief that the Israelis would not DARE retaliate!! The U.N. "observers" do just that, observe.

 

Next - Try reading up on Hesbollah and Hamas, who have in their very constitution the fact that their MAIN aim is to wipe Israel (and all Jews) off the map!

 

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Matthew 19:24). the "eye of the needle" was a narrow gate into Jerusalem through which a camel could just barely squeeze, implying that even rich people can get into Heaven, provided that they walk a straight and narrow path.

 

There is not much open high ground available in the area as Israel has occupied the most useful sites.

 

Nobody is suggesting Israel shouldnt retaliate, but you are talking about hamas and hezbollah whilst Israel attacks Lebanon and kills upwards of 600 civilians. Not exactly what I call retaliation.

 

Yes hamas and hezbollah do with Israel wiped out........the simple fact is whilst Israel continues to oppress the palestinians (whilst the west sits back and does nothing) then your average muslim will find it has sympathy with what they see as freedom fighters. Give them hope and a better life and you'll find that support for hamas and hezbollah dwindles quickly. Peoples attitudes are directly proportional to their quality of life IMO.

[Guest Ferret1959]

I'll tell ya, the Bible is right and I for one is starting to believe it.

 

Not read it yet but my girlfriend tells me a fair bit and the important stuff I should know.

 

 

Just wait and see.

[Ken Davison South Wales]

"What happened to that building containing a shelter for women and children sadly could and has happened many times before in the heat of battle. Missiles had been fired from that location and that is why it was bombed and sadly a loss of innocent life."

 

Were you there and witnessed this Ken, or do you just blindly believe the Israeli propaganda machine ?

 

No I was not there and it was rather poor taste to even pose the question, and no I do not believe all of the rubbish the media/pr brigade dish out.

 

I do however know the cost of the weapons used and I can assure you that they are not thrown around wildly, such is their accuracy they could stick one in your back pocket if required.

 

So if it was stated by the Israelis that the weapon missed its’ intended target I personally would not believe it either.

 

If the opposition stated that women and children were deliberately targeted I would not believe it.

 

So I will stick to my view that the guided bomb hit its’ intended target which very tragically was also the shelter of women and children.

[Guest Brumagem Phil]

I'll tell ya, the Bible is right and I for one is starting to believe it.

 

Not read it yet but my girlfriend tells me a fair bit and the important stuff I should know.

Just wait and see.

 

No such person as God.

 

If you think I'm wrong then simply tell me this.........why does he let so many people die fighting over him if he is supposed to be the all seeing loving creator?

 

We are the product of milllions of years of evolution and when we die the afterlife consists of being eaten by worms!

 

IMHO anyway