Live-baiting is cruel and barbaric

[Grandma]

Thats true, more a case of camo being the new red.

 

And i don't think banning live baiting would stop live baiting as its unenforceable.

 

It won't be enforceable, it'll just take some of the enjoyment of fishing away for a lot of people. Predator anglers will either fish with in the law, accepting the loss of their current rights or they will have to fish with one eye over their shoulder.

 

Either way it's a loss of enjoyment and it won't make the slightest bit of difference to 'fish sufferance'. Dead baits don't grow on trees.

[chesters1]

Yes, the only protection fishing has in comparison is it's relative popularity.

 

The fox hunting ban hasn't protected any foxes or saved them from meeting 'nasty' deaths. It's just stopped an odd looking sport done by a minority.

 

the "odd" lot are still out there

the strange difference is fox hunting as it was "banned" because they killed foxes, angling is picked on because we dont kill fish but "enjoyment" sees to be the key ,perhaps those strange driven types that pick on "enjoyment" lead pretty sad lives and would love everyone to share it with them ,poor sad empty people i feel sorry for them ..........not

the scene of hunters in pinks maybe a minority but the hangers on and others who go hunting with them are not a minority by far ,if only the pond had a tenth the anglers as pass with the hunt when it goes by it and it would be a very popular pond.

 

the human is a competitive animal (hence we evolved) theres some that enjoy hunting foxes some that enjoy hunting fish and others that enjoy hunting the first two (the anti's) whilst the first two concentrate on one particular hobby the last will pick on anything not to their liking and track down those that do it.

all though no doupt get great pleasure in their hunt but the anti's "catch" because they can go unseen in their hunting and have loud voices and legions of followers who have been caught up with clever words and pictures and driven into a frenzy.

no sad person is going to think fish cuddly (unlike foxes) so angling is far harder to get old spinsters het up about but mark my words theres PR chaps dreaming up lies instead to get granny steamed up over ,bird life for one and pets "viscously" hooked by anglers etc as we have seen in the past.

if anglers picked up their crap on leaving most of the anti's ammunition would leave with them ,angling as we know it wont disappear because of fish but anglers attitude to rubbish ,mark my words

Edited January 20, 2008 by chesters1

[gozzer]

Gozzer, all sorts of side issues in your post; how do I know whether a carp (or any of the other fish I fish for) shudders?...I don't, but I don't see it happen. So it is not an issue with me.

 

How meat is killed...KILLED....before being eaten does not bother me either (assuming normal methods of dispatch, quick and painless as possible.)

 

Re Otters, all I have said, and will repeat, is that they have no place on a fishery, at least not one where the owner has introduced valuable stock into a lake that has been free of them for years and years Especially in a lake which was dug out long after the last Otter in the area was extinct. I would treat them the same as a farmer treats a fox which raids his chickens.

 

What I think/feel about other creatures is not relevant to the livebaiting issue...it is all in the words...LIVE and BAITING.

Den

 

Hi Den,

I put the "side issues " in on purpose, because it seems to me, to show an illogical train of thought. You see the "shudder" with a live bait, and it effects you, you don't see one if you hook a fish, and you ignore the possibility of there being one. A case of out of sight, out of mind, it seems, hence the meat analogy.

I very rarely fish for pike, but do lip hook minnows and gudgeon (mainly), for perch, chub, trout and barbel, but I am comfortable with my beliefs, being a "nearly oldie" myself, (some would argue with the 'nearly' ) and can't see that changing. But who knows?

 

As for the rest. I believe you have called for otters to be 'disposed of' along with cormorants and mink. I can't quote you exactly, but think I've got the gist of your past posts on the subject. This it seems is for the benefit of the fish and fisheries.

But you and others have posted favourable comments on the existence of the overstocked commercials, which (IMO) disregard fish welfare on a massive scale.

 

All this, and some comments from others on the thread, make me even more convinced that I am completely out of sync' with angling today, and explains why I choose to fish alone most of the time.

 

John.

[poledark]

Quick reply Gozzer, I have NEVER defended OVERSTOCKED commercials. During my brief matchfishing era (about 20 matches in 2 years), I was taken to some pretty horrible overstocked fisheries, but I also fished some HEAVILY. stocked ones

 

What denotes OVER or HEAVY ?

 

Of course I am mixed up and inconsistent, I have feelings and emotions, I find it difficult to kill a spider which, upon seeing me, freezes. I am aware that it senses danger and probably fear. Picking it up to put it out in the garden (to please the wife) usually ends up with the spider crippled. This makes me feel sad.

 

I wince when I watch wildlife progs on TV, some of these guys seem obsessed with lions killing other animals. My INSTINCT would be to do away with the lions, after all what purpose do they serve except to eat other animals? And yet I can't stand zoos.

 

Life is not black and white, instinct and emotion rule me most of the time, and even though I fish, I do my utmost to cause as little suffering as possible. Actually, that is how I live my life.........................

 

Watch BBC 2 tonite, 6.10. Worth it just for the photography.........

 

Den

Edited January 20, 2008 by poledark

[kleinboet]

Poledark, I see where you're coming from, but, you made a remark "my instinct would be to do away with the lions" - lets put it another way, why are there Pike and Perch in the water? The answer to that is exactly the same as why are there Lions?

They are there to keep the animal (and fish, in the case of Pike/Perch!) herds healthy and fit!

They are natures garbage removal - taking out weak and maimed animals and proving the adage "survival of the fittest" Not nice but needed!

[gozzer]

I've just re read my post Den, and can see that you might have taken it as a personal attack. I apologize if you saw it as that, it was not my intention. I just get a bit frustrated with what I see as inconsistencies, in angling, and the way they can be used to try and ban a legal method, on what is a personal belief.

 

My comment in regard to commercials, goes back to a thread on them, where I seem to remember you saying that you thought that they served a useful purpose in initiating youngsters into angling.

I took this as a favourable comment, and I think I disagreed with you at the time.

 

As for what I regard as an overstocked water. I would say it's where the stock is at a level where it cannot support itself without artificial feeding. These waters are manufactured just for the sake of angling and profit which, as I said, shows scant regard for the welfare of the fish. I fail to understand how any angler can support or accept these waters, and still call for a ban on other aspects of angling.

Also, all waters have their predators, be it pike, otters, osprey, cormorants, mink, or man. The prey pred' ratio will eventually sort itself out, with perhaps the exception of man, but that's another issue.

 

We differ in that I have no trouble with getting rid of spiders, flies, mice, or in seeing a pred' attack prey in a documentary, or even real life, to me it's just the way of things. It doesn't stop me from appreciating the things I see around me. In fact it is one of the reasons I stopped matchfishing. Although I was reasonably successful at club and league level, I found myself getting absorbed into what was happening around me, and had difficulty applying the absolute concentration that it requires.

 

I missed the prog' you recommended, I will see if it's repeated later, cheers.

 

John.

[Dick Dastardly]

Im a strong defender of livebaiting but I have never tried to force others to do so or even change their veiws on it.But why do so many try and tell me what I should be doing?Ive wrote loads on the subject of livebaiting before and cant be bothered to bore you with it all again.Im sure anyone on here whose opinion I care about will have read it and others who are genuinely interested will make the effort to do so.As such I wont go into all the details but rather look at it from a different veiw.Over the years ive found that many people be they initially pro or against livebaiting can be influenced by giving them the real facts in a balanced way.However people who are driven to post condeming the practice are usually basing their opinion on emotion only.No matter what facts you put forward they will not look at the issue fairly as they simply dont want to! its impossible to discuss with people like this.So I no longer bother!As always I say to all the non livebaiters "fine" Im not asking you to do anything your not comfortable with just dont try and push your opinion on me.For those who are undecided them please look into the subject thoroughly first.Oh incidently Tiddler Tamer do you fish for predators?

[tiddlertamer]

Im a strong defender of livebaiting but I have never tried to force others to do so or even change their veiws on it...

 

Im not asking you to do anything your not comfortable with just dont try and push your opinion on me.For those who are undecided them please look into the subject thoroughly first.

 

Oh incidently Tiddler Tamer do you fish for predators?

 

Do I fish for predators? I fish for perch. In fact, it was reading Chris Yates’ beautiful ‘How to Fish’ in which he recounts his attempts to catch the noble perch, which inspired me to take up angling.

I stumbled across it in a bookshop about a year ago and its celebration of the joys of fishing is something I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend to all users of this forum.

In terms of tactics, I usually emulate Yates and dangle a worm in my chosen swim. I wouldn’t be averse to spinning tactics but simply don’t possess the gear.

I‘d also happily dead-bait but with baits bought from retailers, not with roach or dace from the river I was at. Down to the notion (viewed as misguided by many people here?) of keeping the countryside (including fish stocks) as I found it. (Perhaps my school lesson on the Countryside Code was at just the right time for an impressionable and eager to learn seven-year-old. Was I right to listen? A touch naive or heart in the right place?)

Looking after the fish I catch (and that is mainly silverfish) is certainly one of the most important parts of my day by the riverbank.

I don’t fish for pike though. Not because they don’t represent an interesting challenge. Simply because I’d benefit from going pike fishing the first time with someone who had a lot of expertise. Someone who could help me out with the welfare of the fish when removing deeply buried hooks which I hear sometimes require minor surgery to remove. And who could show me how to prevent those self-same hooks ending up in the flesh of the new, naïve and clumsy angler. Whilst I’m sure there is a way to handle an angry pike with sharp teeth, I’d probably benefit from the advice of a seasoned pike angler.

(Ahem) It probably won’t surprise you that whilst I’m ready to listen and learn, I won’t be using live-baiting tactics…

As to zander, I’ve never thought about fishing for them.

I’m new to this forum but I suspect a debate or two in the past, about whether introducing zander to British waters is a good or a bad thing, has caused the odd feather or two to be ruffled.

I’m not sure I should generate such a debate hot on the heels of the controversial live-baiting thread. It would keep things interesting here for a while but perhaps that isn’t the most diplomatic act for a newcomer to this on-line community… If you don't mind I'll express no opinion and take up a position on a fence which I'm sure many of you had wished I'd done about live-baiting.

Then again, I'm not sure if anybody has changed their mind as a reult of this debate about live-baiting but at least this thread has allowed people to express their opinion on something they clearly feel strongly about.

Noam Chomsky (whose views ironically I quite dislike...) did say the following interesting thing.

"If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise we do not believe in it at all."

Now hopefully, there is not a lot of despising going on here at this website. But you get my point about freedom of speech.

And as the BT ad says - it's good to talk.

[barry luxton]

Do I fish for predators? I fish for perch. In fact, it was reading Chris Yates’ beautiful ‘How to Fish’ in which he recounts his attempts to catch the noble perch, which inspired me to take up angling.

I stumbled across it in a bookshop about a year ago and its celebration of the joys of fishing is something I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend to all users of this forum.

In terms of tactics, I usually emulate Yates and dangle a worm in my chosen swim. I wouldn’t be averse to spinning tactics but simply don’t possess the gear.

I‘d also happily dead-bait but with baits bought from retailers, not with roach or dace from the river I was at. Down to the notion (viewed as misguided by many people here?) of keeping the countryside (including fish stocks) as I found it. (Perhaps my school lesson on the Countryside Code was at just the right time for an impressionable and eager to learn seven-year-old. Was I right to listen? A touch naive or heart in the right place?)

Looking after the fish I catch (and that is mainly silverfish) is certainly one of the most important parts of my day by the riverbank.

I don’t fish for pike though. Not because they don’t represent an interesting challenge. Simply because I’d benefit from going pike fishing the first time with someone who had a lot of expertise. Someone who could help me out with the welfare of the fish when removing deeply buried hooks which I hear sometimes require minor surgery to remove. And who could show me how to prevent those self-same hooks ending up in the flesh of the new, naïve and clumsy angler. Whilst I’m sure there is a way to handle an angry pike with sharp teeth, I’d probably benefit from the advice of a seasoned pike angler.

(Ahem) It probably won’t surprise you that whilst I’m ready to listen and learn, I won’t be using live-baiting tactics…

As to zander, I’ve never thought about fishing for them.

I’m new to this forum but I suspect a debate or two in the past, about whether introducing zander to British waters is a good or a bad thing, has caused the odd feather or two to be ruffled.

I’m not sure I should generate such a debate hot on the heels of the controversial live-baiting thread. It would keep things interesting here for a while but perhaps that isn’t the most diplomatic act for a newcomer to this on-line community… If you don't mind I'll express no opinion and take up a position on a fence which I'm sure many of you had wished I'd done about live-baiting.

Then again, I'm not sure if anybody has changed their mind as a reult of this debate about live-baiting but at least this thread has allowed people to express their opinion on something they clearly feel strongly about.

Noam Chomsky (whose views ironically I quite dislike...) did say the following interesting thing.

"If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise we do not believe in it at all."

Now hopefully, there is not a lot of despising going on here at this website. But you get my point about freedom of speech.

And as the BT ad says - it's good to talk.

Fair enough post, so you do live bait, worm dangling. Why would you not use the fish from the river as the pike living there would not have any problem or make that an emotive issue. Regarding catching pike and zander for the future, wouldn't a few days on board a wreck fishing boat be benifical. Certainly give you insite to the toothy critters.

[Vagabond]

No matter what facts you put forward they will not look at the issue fairly as they simply dont want to! its impossible to discuss with people like this.So I no longer bother!?

 

Says it all really, which is why this is my first and last post on this thread.