Gods image.

[Emma two]

but surely it is clear the author is saying that the bit about being in God's image applies equally to women.

 

John

 

Perhaps, but we still get the god character described as 'our father', 'the lord' and him and he' and it's been a patriarchial club throughout, Women, who rarley get speaking parts (quotes) in the bible are cast as either harlots (tarts) Delilah is an evil femme fatale, Jezebel wicked, and Eve is the bitch who started all this sin stuff right at the start (in cohoots with the 'talkin' snake ), or they are saintly, 'righteous or 'beautiful' (the latter may just be male-speakk for 'I'd give it one?) I don't know how many men are mentioned in the bible, I suppose that someone with nothing useful to do has counted them? but I understand that there are only 175 women, and only 60 of them are in the latter 'goodie' category.

 

I know that there has been some revisionist analysis which has proposed the gospel of luke as the 'gospel of women' and the recognition of the 'song of deborah' as one of the oldest pieces of literature in the bible, but I still don't understand why a woman, unless she had designs of political office in the US would want to step inside a church, let alone sqabble about entry into the priesthood of a religion where possession of a penis is a prerequisite for making the rituals valid.

 

Thank you for thre words you said concerning my brother, I was too young to remember much about it at the time, although one of my earliest memories are of searching the house for him, in wardrobes and the bedding chests, I have simply been told, 'your mother has lost her baby', I thought , 'oh come on mam, you lose your purse, your book or your keys, but a baby? if must be around here somewhere!'

What I have more concerns about is the way that the church brings misery to those who have lived, and yet fall into the 'abomination' category (levicitus).

[Emma two]

Like the time when I posted RIP in a post about someone who had died, that too did not mean that I had been converted overnight.

 

I don't think that wishing some one to RIP is especially religious, you just expressed in a nice way how you felt about them. Christians don't have the franchise on humanity and compassion.

[The Flying Tench]

On the dominian theology thing, I'd scarcely heard of them. I agree it sounds scary, though thankfully, according to Wikipedia, full adherents are few and even among conservative christians they are marginalised.

 

Re literalism, I realise that the survey used the phrase, though they don't define it - my point was that the Southern Baptist basis of faith doesn't use the term.

[corydoras]

On the dominian theology thing, I'd scarcely heard of them. I agree it sounds scary, though thankfully, according to Wikipedia, full adherents are few and even among conservative christians they are marginalised.

 

Re literalism, I realise that the survey used the phrase, though they don't define it - my point was that the Southern Baptist basis of faith doesn't use the term.

I was a wee bit off mark when I suggested that Sarah Palin was one of the Dominionists, she is not. She is a pre-millenialist, she thinks she is going to be 'raptured' off the planet, true Dominionists are post-millenialists.

[kleinboet]

In answer to the accusations that saying "oh God" or "Jesus Christ" let me ask this - You usually say it when there is no-one there, so why not say "f**k" or "F***k me" or even "B*gg*r ne!"

You unconsciously (is that better Emma?) realise that there just MIGHT be something out there and hedge your bets!

[The Flying Tench]

Perhaps, but we still get the god character described as 'our father', 'the lord' and him and he' and it's been a patriarchial club throughout, Women, who rarley get speaking parts (quotes) in the bible are cast as either harlots (tarts) Delilah is an evil femme fatale, Jezebel wicked, and Eve is the bitch who started all this sin stuff right at the start (in cohoots with the 'talkin' snake ), or they are saintly, 'righteous or 'beautiful' (the latter may just be male-speakk for 'I'd give it one?) I don't know how many men are mentioned in the bible, I suppose that someone with nothing useful to do has counted them? but I understand that there are only 175 women, and only 60 of them are in the latter 'goodie' category.

 

I know that there has been some revisionist analysis which has proposed the gospel of luke as the 'gospel of women' and the recognition of the 'song of deborah' as one of the oldest pieces of literature in the bible, but I still don't understand why a woman, unless she had designs of political office in the US would want to step inside a church, let alone sqabble about entry into the priesthood of a religion where possession of a penis is a prerequisite for making the rituals valid.

 

Thank you for thre words you said concerning my brother, I was too young to remember much about it at the time, although one of my earliest memories are of searching the house for him, in wardrobes and the bedding chests, I have simply been told, 'your mother has lost her baby', I thought , 'oh come on mam, you lose your purse, your book or your keys, but a baby? if must be around here somewhere!'

What I have more concerns about is the way that the church brings misery to those who have lived, and yet fall into the 'abomination' category (levicitus).

 

And there was Esther the beauty queen, and Judith in the apocrypha who decapitated the enemy commander-in-chief.

 

Well many moderate feminists in the church would say the same thing about the patriarchal club and the stereotypes. For my part, I think the patriarchal bit was in part inevitable as the bible was written in a patriarchal culture. And the stereotypes are the fault of the church (and, society more generally - so-called christian art, films etc) in my view, as I don't really think these people are put over in a stereotypical way in scripture. For example, in the new Testament Adam is held responsible for the fall more often than Eve, and the women are shown as the only ones to have the guts to stay loyal to Christ after the crucifixion. In fact, in christian apologetic, one of the arguments for accepting the testimony of the women concerning the empty tomb is that a woman's testimony did not count in that culture, so, it is argued, if the the early church had wanted to make up evidence they would never have used the women. But their key role was faithfully recorded in the early church's preaching and ultimately in scripture. Although the early church still had predominantly male leadership, in line with culture, in places like Macedonia where women had more say in secular affairs, it seems they also had leadership roles in the church (Lydia, for example.) You could fairly argue that, given the essential equality between men and women claimed in early christian teaching eg Gal 3:28(derived from Jesus' teaching, in my view) the church failed miserably as time went on. I would have to agree.

 

For myself, most of my 'heroes' are women - modern missionaries like Jackie Pullinger, Mother Teresa, and Heidi Baker. I went to Mozambique in June to visit the amazing work started by Heidi Baker, and it was moving to speak to the 'cool' teenagers, one after another, who told how that had been abandoned on the streets till 'Mama Heidi' took them in. I have never heard of works quite like these - with many miracles, but that is another issue - being started by a man.

 

And now there is the question of those in the 'abomination' category - presumably the gays! Please excuse me if I have some lunch and a think first.

[The Flying Tench]

And now for the gay issue, which I think Emma was referring to. Embarrassingly (as I think Emma said she has worked with gay people), I am a traditionalist. I am not totally sure of my position, and it concerns me that, if I am wrong, I am contributing to the exclusion of people whom God loves. But I accept the current somewhat confused view of the Anglican Church that we are to do all we can to accept gay people; that there should be, of course, no sin or stigma attached to having homosexual inclinations; but that genital sex should be the preserve of a man and a woman in marriage. And that ordination of practising gays should not happen at the present time.

 

I hesitant to go into my reasons as I fear it would open up a huge debate, but the chief ones are the teaching of scripture and a caution about the rate at which society's views have changed. For example, we have so little experience of the effects of gay couples adopting and bringing up children. The position of the church, of course, is that it recognises that this is a very problematic area, and it's position is tentative to an extent. That confusion reflects my own feelings.

 

I am straight and married. I hope I am not homophobic, though I acknowledge I have only shared a bed with a gay man on one occasion! I was on a two month trip round the USA immediately after my ordination, and the American people were incredibly hospitable and I was often invited into people's homes. In Laguna Beach, California, a Jewish couple had invited me to have a meal and stay the night. Then, at the last minute, a gay friend, a successful professional, joined us. He was hurting because he had just been deserted by his much younger male lover, and had flown across from New York to visit and hopefully be cheered up. I am not sure what he can have thought when he discovered I was there, but we seemed to get on quite well. The meal was on their balcony on the first floor, and it was amazing how he could sense if people walking by below were gay, and all sorts of ripe conversations took place with them, partly for my benefit maybe. Although he understood where I was coming from, he did say that he found me better to talk to than other 'born agains' he had known.

 

At the end of the evening it turned out there was only one spare double bed! I think he was as embarrassed as me, and I think we both may have stayed awake longer than needed to avoid rolling over unwittingly onto the other! In the morning when I left I naturally went to shake his hand and say it had been great meeting him - he was a really nice guy. But he held back for just a moment, and I felt that he was saying 'Are you sure you want to shake hands with me?' This shocked me and moved me. Shocked at the thought that he could think that. And moved that it mattered to him what I thought. And I think I felt unworthy, too, of being put in the role of the one to do the accepting. I sometimes think of myself as standing before Christ, who accepts me for who I am despite my many flaws, and I naturally felt unworthy of being put in that role re someone else.

 

Which is the huge problem for the church. Because, like it or not, even though we are a 'club for sinners', that's not always how we are seen - and once people know we take a traditional line on the gay issue it's not too likely gay people will want to come. I wish Jesus was alive (in physical form) today, as I would love to see how he would handle this issue. I am quite sure he would hang around the gay clubs, because he always hung out where the 'outsiders' were. I'd like to know how he would handle the 'church bit', too.

[kleinboet]

I am not going to get into a debate about that at this time, suffice to say that morals have changed in the last few years!! Britain, I read somewhere, are the leaders in trhe unmarried mother stakes.

A single parent and an unmarried mother (who openly state to the DSS that THEY DON'T KNOW WHO THE FATHER IS!) are two different things To wear clothing that shows as much of your bare midriff (ESPECIALLY when pregnant) that people can take - it's not the most attractive feature of a woman. The fing and blinding being used in GENERAL conversation (in public)

These are the new morals - and well dare anybody say anything about it, because you will get a mouthful of bad language in return!

[corydoras]

Britain, I read somewhere, are the leaders in trhe unmarried mother stakes.

I think you'll find that 'leaders in the unmarried mother stakes' are the good old US of A.

 

What that has to do with the existence or otherwise of supernatural, omnipotent deities escapes me though.

[corydoras]

I must admit Flying Tench, that I have a great deal of difficulty getting my head round the CofE. Although I am now atheist I was brought up as Presbyterian, in the Church of Scotland. The CofE looks to me like a Catholic church, with the Queen at the helm rather than the Pope.

 

The Church of Scotland has had women deacons since the 1930s and women have being preaching in the CofS since the late 1940s. I remember being totally shocked and confused when Anne Widdicome became a catholic over this issue. To me this would be like a Muslim heading off to the nearest Synagogue because he didn't agree with his Imam's latest and greatest fatwa.

 

To me the catholic church are scarcely christian. They make 'graven images' and pray to others before god.