Gods image.

[chesters1]

And now for the gay issue, which I think Emma was referring to. Embarrassingly (as I think Emma said she has worked with gay people), I am a traditionalist. I am not totally sure of my position, and it concerns me that, if I am wrong, I am contributing to the exclusion of people whom God loves. But I accept the current somewhat confused view of the Anglican Church that we are to do all we can to accept gay people; that there should be, of course, no sin or stigma attached to having homosexual inclinations; but that genital sex should be the preserve of a man and a woman in marriage. And that ordination of practising gays should not happen at the present time.

 

I hesitant to go into my reasons as I fear it would open up a huge debate, but the chief ones are the teaching of scripture and a caution about the rate at which society's views have changed. For example, we have so little experience of the effects of gay couples adopting and bringing up children. The position of the church, of course, is that it recognises that this is a very problematic area, and it's position is tentative to an extent. That confusion reflects my own feelings.

 

I am straight and married. I hope I am not homophobic, though I acknowledge I have only shared a bed with a gay man on one occasion! I was on a two month trip round the USA immediately after my ordination, and the American people were incredibly hospitable and I was often invited into people's homes. In Laguna Beach, California, a Jewish couple had invited me to have a meal and stay the night. Then, at the last minute, a gay friend, a successful professional, joined us. He was hurting because he had just been deserted by his much younger male lover, and had flown across from New York to visit and hopefully be cheered up. I am not sure what he can have thought when he discovered I was there, but we seemed to get on quite well. The meal was on their balcony on the first floor, and it was amazing how he could sense if people walking by below were gay, and all sorts of ripe conversations took place with them, partly for my benefit maybe. Although he understood where I was coming from, he did say that he found me better to talk to than other 'born agains' he had known.

 

At the end of the evening it turned out there was only one spare double bed! I think he was as embarrassed as me, and I think we both may have stayed awake longer than needed to avoid rolling over unwittingly onto the other! In the morning when I left I naturally went to shake his hand and say it had been great meeting him - he was a really nice guy. But he held back for just a moment, and I felt that he was saying 'Are you sure you want to shake hands with me?' This shocked me and moved me. Shocked at the thought that he could think that. And moved that it mattered to him what I thought. And I think I felt unworthy, too, of being put in the role of the one to do the accepting. I sometimes think of myself as standing before Christ, who accepts me for who I am despite my many flaws, and I naturally felt unworthy of being put in that role re someone else.

 

Which is the huge problem for the church. Because, like it or not, even though we are a 'club for sinners', that's not always how we are seen - and once people know we take a traditional line on the gay issue it's not too likely gay people will want to come. I wish Jesus was alive (in physical form) today, as I would love to see how he would handle this issue. I am quite sure he would hang around the gay clubs, because he always hung out where the 'outsiders' were. I'd like to know how he would handle the 'church bit', too.

surely being gay is having sex with a same sex person? .having femminen (sp?) tendancies could be in those that abstain or "tomboys" in the female side ,is "gay" possible without sex? what does god think of bisexuals ? is a bit of hell or heaven kept free for those half gays? .could a tally be kept of all your sexual parties one partner over over the odds send you to bisexual hell if its a male or bisexual heaven if its a woman ,intriguing

interesting bit this god and gay bit ,if i like gays (dont have a problem with them myself) am i headed for damnation or if i slate them does my ticket to heaven have a seat in the gallery?

most chaps dont object to lesbians (well certain visions including them perhaps) but not males in the same scenes so are lesbians overlooked or is it all gays?.

not sure what "practising" means compared to straights i believe the "head" count is usually higher so its us straights that are practising the gays probably have passed any tests

 

i also find it strange the bible (or rather the church) doesnt like the notion of gay sex ,jesus seems to disappear for many years (or his story then was too torrid to print)but in his latter ones was surrounded by men and the slightest inclination he "could" have had sex with a woman is vigorously denied (hints to gay sex is easily got round as saying he was pure ie didnt have sex with a woman),strange how "laws" appear from nowhere ,a few hundred years latter some homophobic scrawls in margin of the rewrite of the scriptures in blue pen "god doesnt like queers" and the next 1700 years are homophobic in the church ,now that the church is powerless here (still has the fear factor in africa) its "ok" but dont mention it too much.in another time frame will devil worship and eating babies be ok but dont mention it too much

if the church really is moving with the times then gay sex and all of mans natural urges and "perversions" need to be welcomed not hidden ,can you have a Goth priest? would julian clary get the robes ?

i dont have a problem with gay marriage (everyone deserves happiness in life) but i do have a problem with gay adoption ,its hard enough for hetero's to adopt so perhaps gays should be not allowed ,a partner with children is ok but two strangers (to the child) just the reserve of hetero couples please.

so if were all in gods image is god bisexual???

islam frowns and comes down hard on extramarital or unwed sex (usually in women ) does that mean were less godlike than them or the christian church's god is more laid back ,he didnt have problems with smiting and theres plenty of beggating so has god been demoted or indeed been relegated as sub god to another more powerful one?

as far as i can make out god gave man the decision to commit sin but strangely denies them of going to heaven if they do!

Romans 1:24-27

 

do the unbaptised still go to hell or can they go through a side entrance to heaven ,so many questions

 

if a gay got baptised would he be straight? ,puzzling

Edited October 20, 2008 by chesters1

[GlennB]

In answer to the accusations that saying "oh God" or "Jesus Christ" let me ask this - You usually say it when there is no-one there, so why not say "f**k" or "F***k me" or even "B*gg*r ne!"

You unconsciously (is that better Emma?) realise that there just MIGHT be something out there and hedge your bets!

 

No, it's just force of habit. They're expressions we all learned when we were young and they become embedded. No doubt Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and the rest let slip such mild profanities at times. It can't possibly reinforce the truth of their belief systems, though.

[corydoras]

No, it's just force of habit. They're expressions we all learned when we were young and they become embedded. No doubt Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and the rest let slip such mild profanities at times. It can't possibly reinforce the truth of their belief systems, though.

I knew a Hindu that used "Jesus H Christ!" as an expletive, proves nothing. Silly argument KB

[corydoras]

I'm off to listen to the latest editions of Dogma Free America and AstronomyCast (the voice Bob )

Edited October 20, 2008 by corydoras

[five bellies]

Ive heard non christians use the term Oh my God many a time,Mainly asians, the MY bit is the important part of the comment, Who says its the god of the Christian they are refering to ?,God willing,

inshalah and Jah shree Krishna, all have similar meanings, No dought similar blaspamys exist across the faiths

 

I might chose to use what could be looked on as a Blasphamy rather that go with a Cockney Fu-k Me! because it Genraly causes less offence in polite company The only Bets im Hedging Is avioding a ear hole bashing off of Mrs FB or GOD forbid My mum

Edited October 20, 2008 by five bellies

[barry luxton]

Ive heard non christians use the term Oh my God many a time,

My wife does,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

nearly every night.

[The Flying Tench]

I must admit Flying Tench, that I have a great deal of difficulty getting my head round the CofE. Although I am now atheist I was brought up as Presbyterian, in the Church of Scotland. The CofE looks to me like a Catholic church, with the Queen at the helm rather than the Pope.

 

The Church of Scotland has had women deacons since the 1930s and women have being preaching in the CofS since the late 1940s. I remember being totally shocked and confused when Anne Widdicome became a catholic over this issue. To me this would be like a Muslim heading off to the nearest Synagogue because he didn't agree with his Imam's latest and greatest fatwa.

 

To me the catholic church are scarcely christian. They make 'graven images' and pray to others before god.

 

The short answer is that the C of E is a classic example of English compromise. Henry VIII took over the catholic church (clergy, buildings etc) and introduced mildly protestant doctrine and liturgy. Then it see-sawed backwards and forwards between catholic and protestant, but in the official liturgies deliberately worded parts so it could be interpreted both ways! There are now really three 'parties' in the church: traditional catholic, liberal catholic and evangelical (protestant). I'm in the third lot.

[Emma two]

In answer to the accusations that saying "oh God" or "Jesus Christ" let me ask this - You usually say it when there is no-one there, so why not say "f**k" or "F***k me" or even "B*gg*r ne!"

You unconsciously (is that better Emma?) realise that there just MIGHT be something out there and hedge your bets!

 

I'm really usure of why you are trying to squeeze me to say that I blaspheme, and so 'prove' that I acknowledge the christian god? I can't make it any plainer, 'I don't'. In truth I may well utter either of the first two of the other things you listed, but never the third. For some obscure reason I usually add 'gently' onto the second, however that doesn't necessarily mean it's how I prefer it!

[corydoras]

The short answer is that the C of E is a classic example of English compromise. Henry VIII took over the catholic church (clergy, buildings etc) and introduced mildly protestant doctrine and liturgy. Then it see-sawed backwards and forwards between catholic and protestant, but in the official liturgies deliberately worded parts so it could be interpreted both ways! There are now really three 'parties' in the church: traditional catholic, liberal catholic and evangelical (protestant). I'm in the third lot.

Do you take communion? If so how often?

[Emma two]

Ive heard non christians use the term Oh my God many a time,Mainly asians, the MY bit is the important part of the comment, Who says its the god of the Christian they are refering to ?,

 

Well put, as we are seeing in this threat here is a presumption from some that those of us who reject the christian notion of god are without 'any' spirituality.