Ethics?

[lutra]

I agree we are not in danger of a outright ban, but I would prefer angling to put its own house in order rather than have some laws imposed on us by Government itself.

 

Sorry i cant agree on that, as in my view coarse fishing will always be under attack from anti's and not just because of live baiting. Yes live baiting might seem like one of the more controversial bits of our sport but if you ban that then what next, maggot, worm or coarse fishing in its entirety as its just for pleasure.

 

We need to stand together and stop back stabbing the bits of our sport that we don't take part in or don't like the look of. Yes i would agree are sport is not in imminent danger of a ban but for how long? I for one would like my kids and their kids to be able enjoy it.

 

I would like to think that if angling was ever under the threat of a ban we could make the fox hunting marches look like a joke, but having read some of the post on here it leaves me wondering if there would be anyone left fishing to care by then.

[barry luxton]

The thin edge of the wedge indeed Neil.

 

I think (I will be corrected if I'm wrong), that the ban in Scotland was in part, a reaction to the moving of fish from other waters,

 

 

 

John.

That indeed was the reason given why they voted for a ban. They even stated that it was the ruff that was causing the main problem eating everything in sight. Huh, who uses ruff for live bait, what would any self respecting angler not catch his own livebait from where he intends fishing for pike.

If the reason really was to prevent the movement of fish, they already have laws in place don't they?

[lutra]

If the reason really was to prevent the movement of fish,

 

You could use that as an excuse to ban allsorts of fishing, zander, carp, barbel, you name it have all been moved all over the place. Yet more evidence we need to stick together.

[Dick Dastardly]

I no longer care if angling or any of the methods I currently use are banned! Simply as it wont stop me going fishing or using them.Ive fished for over 40 years and will continue to do so regardless. Who will actually stop me I ask? The EA ,who cant even be bothered to check my licence now that I and thousands of others are giving them money? and certainly wont be getting any revenue from anglers if anglings banned! The Police? who are so apparentlt underfunded at the moment? Who then will stop me?And will all of the anglers out there who just cant be bothered with the "politics" or the "threat from the antis" etc etc just stop going in the same apathetic manner with which they act at the moment? Once again I frankly no longer care as I will still be ok thank you Jack!I do worry that there will be any fish left in our waters though if no one care about them...........and who would? But then in a world with just me fishing there wouldnt be much pressure on them....

You could use that as an excuse to ban allsorts of fishing, zander, carp, barbel, you name it have all been moved all over the place. Yet more evidence we need to stick together.

Even though fish movement should have been the real reason behind the ban if you actually read some of the papers and press releases on the subject it was amazingly decided purely on the non factual /emotive argument of cruelty!!

[Mat Hillman]

I would like to think that if angling was ever under the threat of a ban we could make the fox hunting marches look like a joke, but having read some of the post on here it leaves me wondering if there would be anyone left fishing to care by then.

 

No, what we'd likely end up with is 17 different marches, all defending just their favourite part of the sport - I can imagine the banners now

 

"Don't ban boilies and bivvies, but you can ban livebaiting if you like"

"Don't ban centrepins, but match angling is cruel ban that instead"

"Don't ban lure fishing, but get those noddy pleasure anglers out of my way"

 

etc etc

 

Mat

[Anderoo]

I've thought long and hard about starting this thread, but reading some of the comments on the 'Livebaiting' debate, (and a kick up the backside from another member) have made up my mind.

 

It was comments like "I used to livebait, but now I can't bring myself to do it" that made me wonder what causes the changes in attitude and approach to angling.

I can only speak for me and from my own experiences, but my beliefs in what I consider to be acceptable in angling haven't changed much in the course of my angling career.

I have been surrounded by anglers and angling since I can first remember. My father and two uncles were all life members of Leeds & District ASA, (my uncle fished in the 'All England' for Leeds, and has a memorial trophy in his name, fished for annually), my mum even met my dad in the old Anglers Club! So you can see it was inevitable that I would follow the same path.

I give that brief history so you know what my angling roots are, and can judge if it has any bearing on my views.

 

I was taught that fish are just that, fish, another animal that we share this world with. That fish are wild creatures that we hunt and, sometimes eat, along with other various creatures. I was also taught to respect (if that's the right word) them and angling. I never (even at a young age) thought that they were capable of 'feelings', or felt 'pain'. If one got injured, through my own stupidity, or lack of skill, I would feel regret about it, but not dwell on it as some do. Instead I would try to learn from the incident, and try not to repeat it.

My experiences over the years have confirmed (to me at least), that my initial thoughts were correct.

 

While I have followed improvements in materials and design that benefit the fish, i.e. net material and disgorgers, I struggle to understand the apparent change in the accepted ethics in angling, the fish haven’t changed, so it must be the attitudes of the angler.

Have anglers become more ‘caring’? I haven’t, I still take the same care as I always did.

Have we become more ‘enlightened’? I think not, the popularity of overstocked ‘easy’ fisheries, and the acceptance of some of the more (IMO) dubious methods of fishing rule that out for me.

Have we brought about the ‘ethical’ changes for the benefit of the fish, our own consciences, or to appease the general public?

The vastly over stocked fisheries and mass introduction of alien species, rule out the fish option for me.

That leaves the other two, and if I’m right, what does the future hold?

How many more ethical changes will be made? There are those on here who are against taking fish for the pot, some would like to see livebaiting banned, others would like to see an end to keepnets, match fishing and even treble hooks.

If we keep on like this, then how long until we question the ethics of angling itself, and do the job of the anti’s for them?

 

John.

 

Angling is really very complex - far more complex than any other sport or pastime I can think of. There's a huge variety of species to fish for, many different types of waters (big rivers, streams, ponds, lakes, huge gravel pits, etc.), a multitude of very different methods and tactics, and behind it all the weather and changing seasons. And somewhere in all that lot is the individual angler who has a particular personality, education, upbringing, and views. It's no wonder we have different opinions.

 

In amongst that lot there are bits and pieces I disagree with from an ethical standpoint (I won't list them). But that's just me. Unless you share my opinion, there's little I can do to change yours.

 

I think Medwaygreen made a very good point about age - as we get older, I think we do start to see things differently. For example, I would never burn ants with a magnifying glass or shoot at garden birds with an air rifle - but I did when I was (a lot) younger. And I'm far from proud about these, by the way.

 

I won't bore you again with the same point about political capital and influencing the masses at election time.

 

Have anglers become more 'caring'? No, I don't think so. Anglers are generally some of the most caring people you could wish to meet. They may get quite vociferous on web forums, but the majority are calm, quiet, nice people who aren't in it becasue they get a kick out of causing suffering - but because they feel the pull of nature and want to be a part of it again. What ridiculous lengths to go to to effect cruelty!

 

The explosion of carp fishing and 'safe rigs' has probably given the impression of a new era of fish care. What is has created is a new set of rules which we're expected to adhere to regardless of circumstances (always carrying an unhooking mat; using Klinik; alwaying using a quick release link for legers; etc.). This doesn't fall under the ethics banner though, except in the commercialisation of angling sense.

 

Have we become more enlightened? No, I think as a whole it's going the other way. It feels to me that the spirit, majesty and essence of angling is slowly draining away. Fishing should be a noble thing. As it gets more commercial and the balance tipped massively in the favour of the angler, there's little nobility left. Fishing should be about hope, patience, instinct, exploration, humility, respect, and understanding the glory of nature. Is it about that now?

 

Have we brought about the 'ethical' changes for the benefit of the fish, our own consciences, or to appease the general public? Sadly, I think these decisions have been made for us to create profit. Individually, I expect it's to ease our conciences.

 

What does the future hold? I doubt very much it's as bleak as many of you would have us believe in terms of bans (unless the issue is politicised). But to be quite honest if angling ever gets to a point where the opportunity and choice is restricted to stocked, commercial-style waters, I'd stop voluntarily. Take the wildness, freedom, uncertainty and difficulty out of fishing, and all that's left is reeling in fish, and that to me isn't fishing. Ethics again, you see

Edited January 21, 2008 by Anderoo

[medwaygreen]

Angling is really very complex - far more complex than any other sport or pastime I can think of. There's a huge variety of species to fish for, many different types of waters (big rivers, streams, ponds, lakes, huge gravel pits, etc.), a multitude of very different methods and tactics, and behind it all the weather and changing seasons. And somewhere in all that lot is the individual angler who has a particular personality, education, upbringing, and views. It's no wonder we have different opinions.

 

In amongst that lot there are bits and pieces I disagree with from an ethical standpoint (I won't list them). But that's just me. Unless you share my opinion, there's little I can do to change yours.

 

I think Medwaygreen made a very good point about age - as we get older, I think we do start to see things differently. For example, I would never burn ants with a magnifying glass or shoot at garden birds with an air rifle - but I did when I was (a lot) younger. And I'm far from proud about these, by the way.

 

I won't bore you again with the same point about political capital and influencing the masses at election time.

 

Have anglers become more 'caring'? No, I don't think so. Anglers are generally some of the most caring people you could wish to meet. They may get quite vociferous on web forums, but the majority are calm, quiet, nice people who aren't in it becasue they get a kick out of causing suffering - but because they feel the pull of nature and want to be a part of it again. What ridiculous lengths to go to to effect cruelty!

 

The explosion of carp fishing and 'safe rigs' has probably given the impression of a new era of fish care. What is has created is a new set of rules which we're expected to adhere to regardless of circumstances (always carrying an unhooking mat; using Klinik; alwaying using a quick release link for legers; etc.). This doesn't fall under the ethics banner though, except in the commercialisation of angling sense.

 

Have we become more enlightened? No, I think as a whole it's going the other way. It feels to me that the spirit, majesty and essence of angling is slowly draining away. Fishing should be a noble thing. As it gets more commercial and the balance tipped massively in the favour of the angler, there's little nobility left. Fishing should be about hope, patience, instinct, exploration, humility, respect, and understanding the glory of nature. Is it about that now?

 

Have we brought about the 'ethical' changes for the benefit of the fish, our own consciences, or to appease the general public? Sadly, I think these decisions have been made for us to create profit. Individually, I expect it's to ease our conciences.

 

What does the future hold? I doubt very much it's as bleak as many of you would have us believe in terms of bans (unless the issue is politicised). But to be quite honest if angling ever gets to a point where the opportunity and choice is restricted to stocked, commercial-style waters, I'd stop voluntarily. Take the wildness, freedom, uncertainty and difficulty out of fishing, and all that's left is reeling in fish, and that to me isn't fishing. Ethics again, you see

 

Gold star for that post.

[tincatinca]

Angling is really very complex - far more complex than any other sport or pastime I can think of. There's a huge variety of species to fish for, many different types of waters (big rivers, streams, ponds, lakes, huge gravel pits, etc.), a multitude of very different methods and tactics, and behind it all the weather and changing seasons. And somewhere in all that lot is the individual angler who has a particular personality, education, upbringing, and views. It's no wonder we have different opinions.

 

In amongst that lot there are bits and pieces I disagree with from an ethical standpoint (I won't list them). But that's just me. Unless you share my opinion, there's little I can do to change yours.

 

I think Medwaygreen made a very good point about age - as we get older, I think we do start to see things differently. For example, I would never burn ants with a magnifying glass or shoot at garden birds with an air rifle - but I did when I was (a lot) younger. And I'm far from proud about these, by the way.

 

I won't bore you again with the same point about political capital and influencing the masses at election time.

 

Have anglers become more 'caring'? No, I don't think so. Anglers are generally some of the most caring people you could wish to meet. They may get quite vociferous on web forums, but the majority are calm, quiet, nice people who aren't in it becasue they get a kick out of causing suffering - but because they feel the pull of nature and want to be a part of it again. What ridiculous lengths to go to to effect cruelty!

 

The explosion of carp fishing and 'safe rigs' has probably given the impression of a new era of fish care. What is has created is a new set of rules which we're expected to adhere to regardless of circumstances (always carrying an unhooking mat; using Klinik; alwaying using a quick release link for legers; etc.). This doesn't fall under the ethics banner though, except in the commercialisation of angling sense.

 

Have we become more enlightened? No, I think as a whole it's going the other way. It feels to me that the spirit, majesty and essence of angling is slowly draining away. Fishing should be a noble thing. As it gets more commercial and the balance tipped massively in the favour of the angler, there's little nobility left. Fishing should be about hope, patience, instinct, exploration, humility, respect, and understanding the glory of nature. Is it about that now?

 

Have we brought about the 'ethical' changes for the benefit of the fish, our own consciences, or to appease the general public? Sadly, I think these decisions have been made for us to create profit. Individually, I expect it's to ease our conciences.

 

What does the future hold? I doubt very much it's as bleak as many of you would have us believe in terms of bans (unless the issue is politicised). But to be quite honest if angling ever gets to a point where the opportunity and choice is restricted to stocked, commercial-style waters, I'd stop voluntarily. Take the wildness, freedom, uncertainty and difficulty out of fishing, and all that's left is reeling in fish, and that to me isn't fishing. Ethics again, you see

 

Superb,

I have been struggling to put into words my own personal view and with this post and for me you have elequently summed up the main issues. I do feel that age has a bearing on the issue simply for the reason that in my own case I have a greater experience of life than I did when I was young and as such many beliefs that I held then have been changed through those experinces and I am sure will continue to do so in the future.. Cultural changes in general regarding what is acceptable and what is not I believe have also had a great impact and whilst I fully accept that people are entitled to their views, I also maintain the right to make my own mind up about what is personally acceptable or otherwise and like the author of the above post I would also stop fishing if the wildness, freedom, uncertainty and difficulty were taken out of the equation.

[dant]

Gold star for that post.

 

2nd Gold star for Anderoo's post. He's saved me from trying to write something very similiar in much worse English.

And a star for Budgies a couple above that. With the amount of fisherman out on a Winters afternoon on the banks of the smaller rivers of Norfolk and Suffolk that I regularly fish I could use a mounted machine gun to pop off the Otters and Cormorants and dynamite if the fishing slowed down and nobody would be any the wiser..

 

Judging by the proliferation of posts of a certain nature at the moment I think you can tell that the fishings a bit slow.

[lutra]

With the amount of fisherman out on a Winters afternoon on the banks of the smaller rivers of Norfolk and Suffolk that I regularly fish I could use a mounted machine gun to pop off the Otters and Cormorants and dynamite if the fishing slowed down and nobody would be any the wiser..

 

I can well under stand your comments on cormorants but are otters really getting to such numbers that they need culling down your way? Could count on one hand the number Ive seen in 30 odd years of fishing in NW England, just another predator to me, no different to a pike and a lot less of them.