Otters Force Out Fishing Club

[Guerilla]

If I'd know otters could be as selective as that I may have helped release them.

 

How about this local tench?

 

or this waveney valley eel?

 

Pike?

 

or how about a chub?

 

failing that, there (was) always monster barbel in the wensum:

 

 

 

 

...This lead to a large number of hand reared foxes that did not have the natural instinct of killing the weak and not just killing for fun. They were the ones that killed every hen and eat none....

Otters do that, too:

[Worms]

More dead fish, no pictures of otters though!

 

The eel looks like an otter kill and the chub could well be, difficult to tell without any more evidence. As for the Barbel, well, where are the tooth and claw marks, evidence of an otter struggling to haul such a massive healthy fish out of the water?

[poledark]

More dead fish, no pictures of otters though!

 

The eel looks like an otter kill and the chub could well be, difficult to tell without any more evidence. As for the Barbel, well, where are the tooth and claw marks, evidence of an otter struggling to haul such a massive healthy fish out of the water?

 

Just what would it take to convince you then? Even the most diehard otter lover must concede that tjose pics are pretty damning evidence?

 

 

Den

[Jeffwill]

There's a few anglers on here that would hang anyone for making anti-otter statements, good job they are not judges in a court! I have dared to relay my experiences previously and have been pigeon holed as anti otter. I wonder how many anglers on here have witnessed first hand a local fishery or stretch of river cleansed of fish by otters. Or if they have bailiffed a water, set up a fishing club, stocked a water and seen the stocks wiped out by otters. I doubt it because otherwise they would listen to others experiences a bit more and evaluate the situation more.

 

Anglers that say they rarely see Otters.. is that because there are not that many Otters near you (so your largely unaffected), or the Otters more spread out? To say your fishing a balanced habitat and rarely seeing Otters..does that not contradict itself?

 

Over the past couple of decades I could count on one hand the number of times I'd seen an otter in the wild and on the rare occasion I did, I was chuffed. It was a special moment just like for everyone else.Then why has my opinion changed in the last few years????

 

Two factual examples to illustrate a simple point of the damage that can be done:

 

1) A local well known mature fishery where a great deal of time and effort had gone into organising the fishery by the club officers. They had no choice but to leave the water as an Otter took up residence and lived happily on the stocked fish, the fish would be pulled out and the bigger fish partly eaten and demoralising left on the bank until the water was not worth fishing, the club disbanded, not by choice.

 

2) The past 10 years or more, I have fished a couple of River Wye stretches and hade caught lovely winter bags of chub. To give you an understanding of the potential, my best day was 28 chub around the 4lb mark, well over a 100lb bag plus the odd trout, few grayling. Three winters ago I saw a pair of Otters porpoising fifty yards away. Every time since I have either seen the pair of Otters, seen fresh tracks (after the river had dropped) and on the odd occasion disturbed an Otter which bow waved away leaving 2 partly eaten chub carcasses. Thats right Two carcasses. Like Fenboys dog Herbie...a greedy little bugger Over successive winters I have seen less and less chub to the extent of the last trip when a mate and I caught a single chub between us.

 

The common link in the two examples - quiet areas - the places we anglers like going - therefore prone to sustained predation.

 

My opinion unintentionally changed negatively through experiencing the worst type of sustained predation. I didnt set out to change my opinion.

 

Recently the Angling Trust, English Nature and the E.A. met and released a statement, paragraph 8:

 

The Group is exploring areas of possible applied research which might be usefully undertaken to enhance knowledge of otters in the wild and their impacts on fisheries with unbalanced fish populations. It would appear that problems are localised to certain rivers, rather than being universal, and it is important to understand why this is the case. Part of that process will be to identify fish populations which are considered to have been adversely affected by otter predation to assess the nature and severity of the problems and to cross-reference this information to historic fisheries data sets. The Environment Agency is to examine a programme of priority fish restocking to restore sustainable fish populations to these fisheries.

 

The wording is carefully chosen but its accepted there are problems. Norfolk anglers are complaining about Otters, after a programme of releasing Otters down there.. or are the anglers all liars, its just a co-incidence?

 

Regarding my being pigeon holed as anti-otter, all I have ever tried to explain is that I would like anglers to see the bigger picture (the I am all right Jacks) and its probably never going to happen but I would like the relevant authorities to be honest and admit there can be localised problems, simply down to Otters (and not always creating a smokescreen…blaming over-abstraction, pollution, habitat damage.. which they trot out all the time).

 

Otters are protected by the Law but they are not saints. Its okay for anglers that live in area’s with excellent local fishing, with sustainable fish stocks and fisheries with a natural balance untouched by this problem, they can still marvel at that rare glimpse of an otter. Below an extract from a BDAP report:

 

The fourth National Otter Survey of England was conducted between January 2000 and February 2002. The results of this survey were published in 2003 and show that otters are becoming more widespread in the rivers of England. The survey found positive signs of otters at 55% more sites than in the 1994 survey. In fact, in every one of the 12 regions and catchments areas surveyed, there was an increase in the number of sites where the signs of otters were detected, representing a 527% increase since 1979.

 

The scale of the increase varies from area to area and at the time of this national survey, otters still only occupied one third of the areas that could support a population. The survey has shown that in favourable conditions, such as cleaner rivers and waterways, greater fish stocks, sympathetic wetland and riverside management and the creation of new bankside habitat, a healthy breeding population can recolonise large areas relatively quickly.

 

Therefore its highly likely that in the not to distant future, when the rare glimpse of an Otter becomes a regular occurrence, other anglers opinions will unintentionally change just like mine but then again when you have anglers who contribute to this thread living close to a selection of quality fisheries / rivers, I dont expect them to be greatly affected straight away, so the Otter debate will continue on this forum.

 

Footnote: Why do some anglers slag off commercial fisheries so much. They provide safe fishing opportunities for young kids and their dads, older anglers with mobility problems and disabled people who otherwise could not go fishing. Some of the comments on here are ignorant of the service they provide. Without commercials most of the fishing tackle shops would go bust too, where would you get your bits and maggots from then...

Edited January 19, 2010 by Jeffwill

[Kappa]

Just what would it take to convince you then? Even the most diehard otter lover must concede that tjose pics are pretty damning evidence?

 

 

Den

 

There is that word 'evidence' again. The photos are clear evidence that:

 

1: Some fish are dead

2: Someone with a camera found them

3: Something eats fish.

 

The photos are not evidence of the following:

 

1: Otters eat fish

2: The fish were killed by otters

3: Otters are making any impact on the stock of any water in the country

 

That is my point! No-one here is arguing that otters eat fish, of course they do. My arguement is:

 

1: I don't believe otters are to blame for massive reductions in fish stocks (except potentially in massively overstocked waters)

 

2: I don't believe many of those fish were healthy fish killed by otters. I believe that in most cases the fish have died or were dying of other causes and the otters were taking advantage of any easy meal.

 

People see a half eaten fish and it all gets blown out of proportion. I saw a dead pidgeon in the Windrush recently. I'm sure if I had fished it out I would have found something would have eaten some of it. Now did the local otters learn to fly or maybe just maybe did it die for some other reason and the local preds get an easy meal?

 

P.s. Just to make it clear I don't feel I have any more right to the fish in the UK than otters do (much less in fact). Therefore if otters eat 'my' fish (I don't think I have any right or ownership to them) its just my tough luck, but I can accept that. Its my right to be able to fish with rod and line but its not my right to catch fish everytime especially not over a native animal that requires them to live.

 

Rich

Edited January 19, 2010 by Richard Capper

[poledark]

Richard, the lakes I fish "lose" a few fish each year. The ones which show up are usually carp (spawning stress etc and tench, probably the same) These fish drift in to the edge, but are never ..I repeat, NEVER, dragged out on to the bank except by bailifs or even myself on occasions. We have foxes close by, in fact we have a lot of foxes close by, they come and say hello some evenings but they never seem to drag these carcases out.

 

In all the 60+ years I have fished I don't recall ever seeing carcases like in Robs pics, but then I have only ever seen what I thought was an otter once in the 1950's. There was no evidence of fish kills on that river, but then there were very few large fish, and not to many medium sized ones either. It is very likely that the fish that that otter caught were eaten completely, so no remains left.

 

This may also be the case on "your" river, a hungry otter will not waste much of its catch, and if it catching fish infrequently, then it will be hungry.

 

I have just remembered that I have seen another otter, about 10 years ago, on holiday in Norfolk, I was sitting in the garden and this otter came creeping along the side of an almost dry ditch. A long way from any river.

 

Den

[gozzer]

I'm surprised you haven't seen more fish carcasses on the banks Den, because I've seen plenty over the years. Many of them before the reintroduction of otters. I've disturbed mink and rats feeding on them. Nobody has said that otters don't kill and eat fish, but I don't blame the otter for every dead fish I've seen, as some seem to do.

If the problem is as localised and as bad as some say, then I would like to see detailed surveys done in the areas, to include the numbers and ages of otters, but also the number of mink, and with a proper postmortem on the fish.

I would also like to see if the numbers of otters in an area, corresponds with the numbers of overstocked 'fisheries' in the same area.

 

Footnote: Why do some anglers slag off commercial fisheries so much. They provide safe fishing opportunities for young kids and their dads, older anglers with mobility problems and disabled people who otherwise could not go fishing. Some of the comments on here are ignorant of the service they provide. Without commercials most of the fishing tackle shops would go bust too, where would you get your bits and maggots from then...

 

I don't have a problem with commercial waters Jeff. Any water that offers a day ticket could be loosely classed as 'commercial'. What I do have a problem with, is the purpose built 'fisheries' that grossly overstock the water with mainly the same species, (usually strains of carp). Many of these 'fisheries' are just there as a money making business. with little regard for the fish, and the environment. These are often built on flood plains, with the obvious increased chance of fish escaping into the local river system. The Yorkshire rivers that I know that have been 'infected' are the Aire, Wharfe, Ouse, and Calder, the others probably are as well, because they all feed the same system. These fish weren't there 20yrs ago, and they can't have got there naturally, because 8lb carp don't appear 'just like that'. They've either been put in illegally by some idiots, or escaped from a 'commercial'.

I also have a problem with those who take charge of an established, mixed water, then decide to put a thousand or so carp (again), bream, catfish, barbel, etc, on top of what's already in there. This is done just to make the fishing easier in the short term, but will have a devastating effect on the overall balance in the long term.

If people want to fish these waters, fair enough, I don't. They should not be allowed to be built where there is a good chance that escapees will invade the river system. I fact if I had my way, they would be forced to invest in barriers to help prevent escapees, or be shut down.

 

John.

[Dick Dastardly]

That was a good post Jeffwill.It has swayed my opinion slightly.

 

Den I'm also surprised you've not seen part eaten carcases.Ive not seen that many (a handful at most) but seen them I have.One was on the Stour Lake. Although not an expert I had always thought this to be mink scavenging an all ready dead fish.Ive never seen an Otter in England yet alone Kent but I have seen plenty of mink.But have to admit that Ive never seen a problem with mink other on a trout reservoir where they would raid the rearing cages.

[Guerilla]

More dead fish, no pictures of otters though!

 

As for the Barbel, well, where are the tooth and claw marks, evidence of an otter struggling to haul such a massive healthy fish out of the water?

 

Try this one:

 

Death on the Wensum Link

 

"...Unfortunately, otter predation is now resulting in such high numbers of adult barbel being lost that many of us increasingly fear that the collapse of the Wensum barbel fishery is inevitable..."

 

"...With otter predation of fish stocks on the Wensum and its neighbouring Broadland rivers, the Yare and Bure, having reached a point where the situation has become unsustainable without intervention, the future is looking particularly bleak."

 

"...Today, however, otters have left many stretches almost devoid of fish."

 

"...Three years ago there were as many as seven known 15lb-plus barbel in the fishery, but today, due to one reason or another, this number has been reduced to two, one of which is a potential next UK record if it can last long enough to make the weight."

 

 

 

Very good post Jeffwill.

 

I can't believe this is still being disputed; Otters are simply killing lots of fish here.

 

1: I don't believe otters are to blame for massive reductions in fish stocks (except potentially in massively overstocked waters)

Have a guess at what one of the 'one reason or another' reasons may be if the fishery has the potential to produce a British record. Yes, the Wensum is stocked, but not to the extend of a commercial lake full of F1 carp.

 

2: I don't believe many of those fish were healthy fish killed by otters. I believe that in most cases the fish have died or were dying of other causes and the otters were taking advantage of any easy meal.

Carp in cold water are slow, but they aren't dead or dying. Would you rather take the really big, meaty, easy-to-catch carp and just eat what you want from it, or would you rather chase down a shoal of 4oz dace, expelling energy in the process?

[Steve Walker]

 

 

 

 

Nature red in tooth and claw - we all must eat.