Otters Force Out Fishing Club

[lutra]

So I am well aware of the feelings that can be aroused when it comes to protecting furry creatures. I actually have no problem with otters, what my problem is, is when they move in on a man made, man stocked, man maintained body of water, In most cases, dug out long after otters were extinct in that particular area. My problem is even worse when the otters are introduced by others with no regard for the feelings of others.

Quite right Den, Otters have never been extinct from England, just particular areas and it was always likely otters would return helped or not.

 

The return of otters is/was not unforeseeable, so i would like to know why £100,000 is been given out to these private businesses.

 

When it comes to having no regard for the feelings of others, the carp and barbel world have no room to talk.

Edited January 19, 2010 by lutra

[Anderoo]

Den, I really don't want to fuel some wierd AN Vs Den argument, but can I just address some of your points?

 

And then we have the continual denials that they can do serious damage to a fishery, and as always, carp and barbel are brought in to the argument. I used to fish a small river (the upper Eden in Kent) back in the early 1950's. I believe I saw my only wild otter there, but there were also very few decent sized fish. Small river, a couple of otters, very few fish.

I don't think it's fair to link the lack of fish in your river to a sighting of an otter. We have lots of otters here, and some rivers have many more fish than others. I really don't think there's an otter link. Some have big fish, some don't. Or at least, I can't find them

 

This argument will go on and on, almost nothing will get done, otter lovers (?) will continue to assert that otters have the right to eat fish that were bred by man, stocked into a lake that was dug by man, and provide enjoyment for man.

I wouldn't call myself an otter lover any more than a kingsisher lover or pike lover, and I'm not sure if 'right' is the correct word here, but I don't think you can blame a wild mammal for doing what millions of years of evolution compels it to do?

 

By the way, have you any idea how secure the fencing has to be to stop otters? steel mesh, buried at least 2 feet deep and probably 5 feet high, is a basic requirement. Just a small gap around the entrance gate, probably only 5" hole and they will get through. And even if that fence is succesful, the otters will move on to the next lake and so on. All in the search for that elusive natural balance. As I said, £100,000 is a poor joke, and sums up the EA attitude to anglers.

I agree that £100k isn't much, but in the reports, the EA guy says that there are still funds available, so it seems to me that fishery owners are being a bit bloody minded and not even bothering to apply for a grant! I would have expected that £100k to have been snapped up instantly.

 

Natural balance will be achieved when the number of otters increases and the number of fish decreases...wonderful...but you won't have any worthwhile fishing left. Think on this, a pair of otters with young....a couple of decent sized fish each day, (decent sized are the sort we fish for). About three months and a couple of hundred fish later .....THATS 200+ FISH gone.....for good. And if they haven't left, it will start all over again the next year.

I don't think the numbers really mean much, when we don't know how many fish are eaten by pike/perch/chub/kingfishers/cormarants/people/etc. and how many just die anyway. I would guess that virtually every fish (statistically) is killed or dies before it reaches adulthood, and the rest are on borrowed time! All I know from experience is that otters (and everything else that eats fish) and great fishing can co-exist quite happily, in a natural environment.

 

For the record, I do sympathise when lakes lose their fish, for whatever reason. But as far as I know, Den hasn't had any problems with otters and isn't that likely to, I have plenty here and the fishing is very good, and if a commercially run fishery does have a problem or is at risk, there are steps they can take to protect their investment.

 

I hope it doesn't look like I'm just attacking Den and ganging up with everyone else, but his are the main articulate counter points to react to. I also realise that, in the wider scheme of things angling-wise, my views are probably in the minority.

[gozzer]

Watatoad, I'm not sure how much of your post was 'tongue in cheek' but I suspect from this,

"Otters those pretty furry creatures roaming free are in today's UK as out of place as a sabre tooth tiger or a bear is."

that it must be quite a lot.

Otters have never been extinct in the UK, just reduced in numbers and more localised.

 

Most on here know my views on purpose built commercial waters, (so I won't go into another rant). I'll just say that if the owners cared enough to try and prevent fish escaping from their water and into the system, as they do about the alleged predation from otters, I might have a bit more sympathy for their claims.

I remember the guy who came on here complaining that he had lost 5000 catfish, that had escaped during floods into the Yorkshire rivers. He even had the cheek to ask for donations from us to help him out!!!!

 

 

John.

Edited January 19, 2010 by gozzer

[Ken L]

Comercial waters will be the death of angling in the UK.

If it's not the sight of overstocked lipless wonders being dragged out for the umpteenth time providing every bit of evidence that the "Angling is cruel" brigade could ever want, it's the PR disaster of a story like this on national news.

 

As said, if you want a farm, fence it and if you don't fence it, don't bitch about loosing stock.

 

Otters like foxes are both cute and cudly and anyone who thinks they are going to get public support by moaning about the damage that they do to entirely unatural overstocked fishing lakes is living in cloud cookoo land.

[fenboy]

There is at least one here who is not converted. Why oh why is it that anything that eats fish has to be so damned sacred? Why oh why are carp and barbel anglers percieved as "the minority" ?

 

Given a simple choice I think that most anglers would prefer no predators of any sort...except other fish of course. Ask the question....would you be happy to share your lake with Otters. Would you be happy to arrive at the lakeside and find partially eaten carcases on the bank...week after week until the supply dwindles and fishing is a waste of time? How many of you otter lovers have actually been affected yet? Oh yes, I forgot "natural balance" this is when it is someone else fish being eaten isn't it.

 

Otters versus specimen fish? and when the specimens have gone, and all the specimen anglers with them, who will be left? Tiddler bashing Otter lovers.

 

 

It's all a bit like the cat lover whose cat eats the birds in a neighbors garden, as long as its got fur, it must be protected. .

 

But then there are many it would seem that would be quite happy to see all the specimen fish eaten................as long as they are carp and barbel.........................funny no one mentions the perch/dace/roach/gudgeon/eels (now in serious decline).

 

I,ve said it before, no real angler would be happy to know that or any other anglers prime fish were being eaten.

 

When all the carpers and barbellers have given up, and the tackle shops have all gone, and what good fishing is left becomes prohibitely expensive, then angling will simply wither away.

 

The words "laughable" were used. what is laughable ( and pathetic and an insult to fishery owners) is the £100.000 fund to provide fencing. £100,000? this will protect about 4 or 5 small lakes.

 

I have been re reading Fenboys post...."a handful of selfish specimen anglers" and the real prize goes to the statement that " when the stock has been reduced, they will move on" is one of the most irresponsible statements I have read on AN. He says he has only ever seen two otters, so he's all right jack.

 

That post is full of hate for carpers/barbellers any specimen type angler.

 

Den

Many thanks for your views, Den. Needless to say, I you're wrong on just about all of them.

 

However, I will limit my reply to just two of the points you make which are aimed directly at me:

 

1. You twist the fact that I have seen two otters on my local river to accuse me of being "I'm all right Jack". Nonsense. I am disappointed that I have not seen many more otters.

 

2. You say that my post is "full of hate for carpers/barbellers any specimen type angler". No, not hate, Den -- but I would admit to feelings of pity/derision for certain elements of the modern big fish scene.

 

I don't know how old you are, Den, but if you are younger than 50 then I can assure you that I was catching big fish while you were still at primary school. I come from an era when we made our own tackle (it wasn't possible to buy specimen tackle from the shops) and targeted natural fish in natural surroundings. Many hadn't been caught before: none had names.

 

My specialist subject in those days was pike. And the biggest problem for the pike angler back then -- the 1970s -- was that most anglers didn't like pike and many killed them.

 

(Please bear with me, this angling history lesson is very relevant to the otters argument and all will be revealed in a minute or two...)

 

In those dark, unenlightened days, many roach/bream/chub/barbel/dace/carp anglers killed pike because they considered that pike, as a predator, killed the fish they wanted to catch and therefore should be exterminated. We were, therefore, "treated" each week in Angling Times and Anglers Mail to pictures of proud captors holding DEAD 20 lb-plus pike for the camera, often in their back yards.

 

Back then, match anglers who accidentally caught a pike would often throw it -- still alive -- into the bushes behind their pegs.

 

Among the noted pike-haters was the late (and otherwise great) Dick Walker. Even Fred Buller, who is about to receive the MBE for his services to pike fishing, KILLED big pike, including a 32-pounder, from Ireland to appease the salmon and trout anglers.

 

Obviously this sort of thing wouldn't happen today, would it, Den? You wouldn't get a selfish minority of anglers deciding to kill a natural predator because it affected their sport, would you?

 

The parallel to be drawn is obvious. Certain anglers think THEIR sport is threatened by predators and therefore demand to be allowed to kill the predators concerned, regardless of the feelings of others.

 

They're selfish morons, Den. I do hope I'm not describing you.

 

Incidentally, otters are indigenous to all rivers in the British Isles. Carp are not. And nor are barbel in rivers like the Wensum, Severn, Wye, Warwickshire Avon, Hants Avon, Bristol Avon, Dorset Stour (too many to list here, in fact).

 

I could make a better case for the removal of these alien species than the anti-otter brigade can for killing a natural predator that has every right to be there. So think on.

[fenboy]

Glad to see you back Fenboy................saves me having to post a lot of the time!

 

Den Ive noticed with a lot of issues like this you end up seeing it as an attack on specimen hunters/carp anglers/specialist anglers. As "all of the above" in most cases I really don't think it is.It is more of a reference to the many,many "instant experts" that these areas attract/create.Or even more accurately the "deifying" of their quarry that is common (indeed an essential part of the "image") amongst such.

 

God I know I'm going to end up upsetting you again mate purely as I just cant put down exactly what I mean! please excuse me while I struggle to explain myself!

 

I know that even just one "known" fish can mean an awful lot to anglers and an awful lot financially to a fishery owner.For the fishery owner though at least its rational in that the loss of such fish is three fold-

 

1. The cost of the initial fish or more importantly the replacement of the fish.

 

2. The loss of "attraction" due to the "known fish" having gone.

 

3. Lastly but probably most important the "Otters have ate all the fish there" factor amongst anglers who aren't catching for whatever reason!

 

From the anglers perspective the loss of any fish is underlined by the selfish line of "if its dead I cant catch it" Although the real problem (in the specialist/barbel/carp scenario) is this deifying of the fish and it being "the done thing" to "I love carp/barbel/etc etc more than anyone else" thing that becomes almost hysterical.Any predation by man,furry creatures or other fish has always caused this.

 

I totally agree the "fencing fund" is ridiculous and even though (maybe even more so) some fisheries are commercially run businesses they should receive proper help.

 

Now another area where Dens seen red! People seem to be making quite broad statements re lots of very very different types of fisheries. Yes Ive seen plenty of carp muddied,weed destroyed ,in fact carp destroyed (or I suppose really the person who stocked them!) waters.Ive also seen plenty of others that are not! I know that Otters getting in established on one of the later could still result in a valuable specimen being killed but in the first case ie the small artificial,overstocked,mud hole then they will absolutely definitely trash it! A small river could be damaged far more easily than a big one eg the small narrow stretch of the Medway that once held the record barbel could have been destroyed in one feeding spell! where the River Severn could no doubt happily sustain a healthy population of both predators and prey.

 

I'm happy enough to see "the balance of nature" restored where mans hunting/trapping or ecological pressure has seen the demise of otters BUT I do have some worries.The main thing Ive said above is "different" and surely that's the key word? and the one that I feel a lot of the pro otter people (who many off are just as fanatical and blinded by their own selfishness as the anglers) will forget/ignore as well.

 

Careful thought must be given to where these animals are re introduced,appropriate control and funding for such must be considered and given.Yes I know that it can be argued and is true that the worst affected ie the Medway barbell situation and the small commercial match fishery etc are not natural but I don't see why they should suffer especially the business behind them?

 

My worries are non of the above will be considered as the only concern the "otters back" boys will have about fish is that there's enough to feed the furry creatures. The selfish,blinded,fanaticism thing again.

And now Im back full circle.I think that "our" own attitude needs to be balanced rather than being seen as totally anti fish predation.We might then have a chance of being heard and a bit of sense shown.

 

Lastly (and I doubt Ive still explained myself properly!) other "re introductions" have been mentioned. Fine if its mans direct effect that's caused their demise,fine if it can be done "properly",I'm not even that worried about the financial cost v end result issue but it really (surely?) depends on whether man did bring the situation about or whether it was simply just natural progression.Many forget that mans affect on nature is just as "natural" as any other animals.We are often put "outside" of this equation.

 

What would anglers views on re introducing Burbot be I wonder? Bet we would all be up for that? even though realistically it would be a bit daft as we don't even know why exactly they did disappear in the first place!

Hi Budgie... thanks for the welcome.

 

Re burbot, I'm old enough to remember when the last couple were caught on the Fens -- including one immediately below Denver Sluice on the Relief Channel (to an eel angler fishing a small deadbait, if I recall correctly). I would dearly love to see them re-introduced, but it would probably be pointless due to habitat destruction and a trend for warmer winters in recent decades. As I understand it, burbot breed in winter below ice (probably all right this iwnter, though!).

[poledark]

Attack all you want lads, my back is broad and I am very clear where I stand. Despite the protestations that you are not anti carp/barbel/specialist/commercials they keep being mentioned. Even when I point out that otters eat other fish it gets ignored,

.

 

One or two of you seem to think that your little world is perfect and that the balance is perfect, a few dozen fish get eaten by otters...so what..........plenty more where they came from. I am tempted here to say that I don't care about "your" fish and "your" litle river, but then I fall into the same group as all of you. You don't believe the evidence that has been presented by numerous TRUTHFUL anglers/fishery owners. Liars and fools all of them. Even the post that started this off is ignored, but then it is not your fishing which has been affected is it?

 

I noted that Lutra repeats the slur that "carp and barbel anglers have no room to talk" I fish for both....and like many of them, I fish for pike...and roach....and eels.....and rudd.........and bream (god forbid the otters start eating them).

 

A thought has occured here....a vision of the future....imagine a pretty lake............perhaps it was man made supplying the materials for roads and houses. Some fish were stocked 25 or more years ago. Some are now huge specimens...fat ugly pot bellied carp...........superb striped perch..............Tench to die for.................and some fat (very fat) bream. Paradise...a couple of hundred quid will buy you a ticket, up to a £1000 even!!!!!

 

The owner makes quite a nice few quid out of it all, anglers queue up to fish there.......................and then some fool introduces a pair of otters. They may even arrive on there own from some other water where they have reduced the fish population. Oh great joy, the sight of them gamboling in the sun..diving down and emerging with a fine fat fish will set the pulses racing. Within a few years there will be several pairs (plenty of fish so why not) A few more carcases on the bank...who cares as long as the otters are happy. and then a few of the bream start to get eaten....a couple of really big ones...only took them 15 years to grow..................so what, the otters are entitled to eat them aren't they, and it is only a "commercial" so it is an easy target.

 

And then the anglers catches start to dwindle...ticket sales drop....anglers drift away...never mind, all has reverted to nature, a balance has been achieved...the BBC will send a wildlife team there every couple of years, so the public will get to see otters. All is well with the world, and the one time anglers can feel smugly happy that they helped to provide all those fish for the otters to eat.

 

I won't change my opinion, I won't go down the road of slagging off commercial fisheries, and other anglers, whatever their chosen fish. Otters do have a place in nature, but not on man made fisheries.

 

Den

Edited January 19, 2010 by poledark

[Dick Dastardly]

but it would probably be pointless due to habitat destruction and a trend for warmer winters in recent decades. As I understand it, burbot breed in winter below ice (probably all right this iwnter, though!).

 

Exactly things have in the case of the Burbot "moved on" Not possible to return the conditions back to what they were so pointless trying to re introduce a fish into the environment that killed it off!!.............................................I just wonder if all the other "lets re introduce...." people have thought about this sort of thing for their chosen species? I'm equally worried that they haven't as I'm worried about anglers selfish reasons for not having them back. "Balance" in more than one sense is whats required and seemingly absent.

[fenboy]

Attack all you want lads, my back is broad and I am very clear where I stand. Despite the protestations that you are not anti carp/barbel/specialist/commercials they keep being mentioned. Even when I point out that otters eat other fish it gets ignored,

.

 

One or two of you seem to think that your little world is perfect and that the balance is perfect, a few dozen fish get eaten by otters...so what..........plenty more where they came from. I am tempted here to say that I don't care about "your" fish and "your" litle river, but then I fall into the same group as all of you. You don't believe the evidence that has been presented by numerous TRUTHFUL anglers/fishery owners. Liars and fools all of them. Even the post that started this off is ignored, but then it is not your fishing which has been affected is it?

 

I noted that Lutra repeats the slur that "carp and barbel anglers have no room to talk" I fish for both....and like many of them, I fish for pike...and roach....and eels.....and rudd.........and bream (god forbid the otters start eating them).

 

A thought has occured here....a vision of the future....imagine a pretty lake............perhaps it was man made supplying the materials for roads and houses. Some fish were stocked 25 or more years ago. Some are now huge specimens...fat ugly pot bellied carp...........superb striped perch..............Tench to die for.................and some fat (very fat) bream. Paradise...a couple of hundred quid will buy you a ticket, up to a £1000 even!!!!!

 

The owner makes quite a nice few quid out of it all, anglers queue up to fish there.......................and then some fool introduces a pair of otters. They may even arrive on there own from some other water where they have reduced the fish population. Oh great joy, the sight of them gamboling in the sun..diving down and emerging with a fine fat fish will set the pulses racing. Within a few years there will be several pairs (plenty of fish so why not) A few more carcases on the bank...who cares as long as the otters are happy. and then a few of the bream start to get eaten....a couple of really big ones...only took them 15 years to grow..................so what, the otters are entitled to eat them aren't they, and it is only a "commercial" so it is an easy target.

 

And then the anglers catches start to dwindle...ticket sales drop....anglers drift away...never mind, all has reverted to nature, a balance has been achieved...the BBC will send a wildlife team there every couple of years, so the public will get to see otters. All is well with the world, and the one time anglers can feel smugly happy that they helped to provide all those fish for the otters to eat.

 

I won't change my opinion, I won't go down the road of slagging off commercial fisheries, and other anglers, whatever their chosen fish. Otters do have a place in nature, but not on man made fisheries.

 

Den

Den, I agree entirely with the last sentence of your last paragraph: "Otters have a place in nature, but not on man-made fisheries."

 

As has been expressed elsewhere in this debate, it is up to the owners of man-made fisheries where the balance of nature has been distorted in some way (eg over-stocking with carp) to deal with the situation by either investing in otter-proof fencing or allowing the balance of nature to be restored.

 

Now I wouldn't want to appear politically incorrect, but I can imagine that otter-proof fencing could easily double up as security fencing to keep undesirable humans out, too. And by that I mean the wave of immigrants from Eastern Europe who use every means possible to catch and eat coarse fish.

 

They are a much bigger menace to fish stocks on our lakes and rivers than otters ever could be.

[Dick Dastardly]

Yes Den I reckon that last statement has nailed it. The "differences" I spoke of. Of course an earlier comment you made is also sadly true and that is that even if the otters are put "in a suitable place" it doesnt mean they wont wander or as they breed spread.....or does it?