bream spod mix

[gozzer]

I don't know why there's this debate over whether carp are naturalised or not, it's irrelevant to the problem. I've read that they have been here for anything between 800 and 1400 years, again irrelevant. If they have been here say, 1000 years, for the first 970 (ish) years there was no problem. They were in many waters in varying numbers along with other species. They only bred in suitable years, so their numbers remained pretty stable.

It's only in the last 20 odd to 30yrs that they have been stocked to the extent that their numbers and range have increased greatly. There are no figures (that I know of) that show just how much their numbers have increased, (many were stocked illegally), but in my area alone I would hazard a guess at well over a 1000% increase, (probably much, much higher). That is the problem, not how long they have been here, or whether they should be classed as 'native', it's the sudden unnatural increase over a relatively short period of time, and that effect on the aquatic and surrounding environment.

 

John.

[Phone]

gozzer,

 

You mean like importing "native" Norway Rats. Who cares how they got here or when. You think there are to many?

 

If the fish population increased %1,000 in an equal number of puddles how much do you guesstimate the angler population has increased? Are they offsetting and you just don't like it or is it out of balance from a "use/benefit" standpoint? Seems to me carp guys are still "standing in line" for a peg. They are still paying syndicate fees (in the face of rising costs). ETC ETC Is that true?

 

Phone

BTW - FYI I last carp fished in the UK in 1983 - 84(?). I don't know if I could get used to the "culture" of paying to fish since I am so spoiled.

[gozzer]

gozzer,

 

You mean like importing "native" Norway Rats. Who cares how they got here or when. You think there are to many?

 

If the fish population increased %1,000 in an equal number of puddles how much do you guesstimate the angler population has increased? Are they offsetting and you just don't like it or is it out of balance from a "use/benefit" standpoint? Seems to me carp guys are still "standing in line" for a peg. They are still paying syndicate fees (in the face of rising costs). ETC ETC Is that true?

 

Phone

BTW - FYI I last carp fished in the UK in 1983 - 84(?). I don't know if I could get used to the "culture" of paying to fish since I am so spoiled.

 

I mean that how long they have been here has no real significance on the effect they are having. It's the last 20 to 30 yrs that have had the major influence. The increase in numbers is just a guess, and I think a very conservative one. In my area back in the 70s, I knew of maybe a dozen waters that contained carp in any number. The fish were considered special, and I spent many sessions fishing for them. In most of the waters they made up about 10% of the total number of fish. Now I can only think of one water that only has a few carp in it, the rest have stocked with carp to the extent that they make up the majority of fish in the waters. That is in the established waters that I have fished most of my life. It doesn't include the dozens of new 'fisheries' that stock only with carp and 'exotics'. They have also been stocked into my local canal, and are spreading into the river that it feeds.

Over the last 30 odd years, I would say that the overall number of anglers has fallen ,although the EA reported a slight increase in the sales of licences recently.

I'm not sure what you mean by "standing in line for a peg". If you're asking if there are more anglers than available water, then no that's not the case. The only time I've seen anglers queueing for a water is on the more popular commercial waters. Some pay to join a syndicate, some join 'associations' that own or lease several waters, some join small clubs that have a few waters, and some just pay a fee to the owners for a day or session ticket. This can be several hundred pounds a year for a syndicate, about £30-£100 a year for a club or association, to £5- £15 per day on a commercial.

 

We also have to buy an EA national licence that covers you for 2 rods, at £27 for the year.

 

John.

[Tigger]

I'm not sure what you mean by "standing in line for a peg". If you're asking if there are more anglers than available water, then no that's not the case.

John.

 

 

 

It has been that way on many stretches of the ribble recently, it seems an awful lot of x-carp fanatics have started to fish the rivers using the same standard carpers set up and targetting the barbel. Recently I've caught lots of fish with horrendus mouth damage !! The only thing I can put it down to is the number of anglers on the banks and the tackle they're using...large hooks, heavy line and rods etc.

[Phone]

gosser,

 

I mean there is no shortage of carp anglers for the available places to fish yet. Is there?

 

I'm afraid I don't disagree with you on the stocking issue. However, I don't see many stories coming across the pond about fish kills from overstocking. Surely with guys like the "boo carp" crowd they couldn't keep all fish kills a secret. Just not my cup of tea but I can live and let live. Are you perhaps, to make a point, overstating the situation a bit? I do remember "specimen" carp were selling for "stupid" sums of money in the UK. Is that still true?

 

Trust me, I know about "overstocking" carp ponds. We have "paylakes" with enormous over populations. The owners take very good care of their stock. Never-the-less they must add 3 - 4 thousand pounds of carp annually to maintain census. The prefer 20 - 40 lb fish because that's what the paying customers like. Nothing wrong with that IMO. As long as the angler "fesses" up to catching "fish in a barrel". These are gambling enterprises, angling is but the vehicle.

 

Phone

[Steve Walker]

I think what annoys Gozzer (and others) is when a nice traditional mixed fishery has so many small carp put into it in order to make for easy fishing that they just squeeze everything else out. This is not a practice which comes from specimen carp fishing, it comes originally from match fishing. The purpose made waters tend to be arranged to be uniform canal-like arrangement and are filled with lots of little carp, to give a level playing field. To try to add some variety, they will often stock exotics like ide and even river species like barbel. This easy catching became so popular that the same stocking policy was applied to natural waters, ruining them for anyone who doesn't want fake fishing. You can't avoid the carp to target other species, and their constant grubbing in the silt turns the water muddy, killing off submerged vegetation.

 

This is the point of the exercise:

 

 

http://lincolnshireangler.co.uk/2011/04/26...-bagging-26411/

[John Weddup]

Thanks for that link Steve

 

What a wonderfull days fishing must go there sometime.

 

At the risk of upsetting Rudd again these are the sought of matchmen that are ruining our sport. My local club does not hold river matches now choosing to go to these venues.

 

Any serious carp, specimen, pleasure or proper match anglers despise this sort of fishery.

 

Tincatinca helped me with some great local knowledge of gipping angling club waters recently and said one great tench water has now been ruined by carp introduction and how right he was. You can catch carp in any weather and any conditions its pot luck if you can escape them long enough to catch a tench or bream.

 

The club even had the cheek to write to its members recently asking for donations above yearly subs to pay for more carp in a venue next to the river that floods into it.

 

regards

 

John

[Dales]

Tincatinca helped me with some great local knowledge of gipping angling club waters recently and said one great tench water has now been ruined by carp introduction and how right he was. You can catch carp in any weather and any conditions its pot luck if you can escape them long enough to catch a tench or bream.

 

Oddly that water may well become a top Tench water in a few years. The introduction of lots of Carp seems to have a detrimental effect on many species but oddly Tench do seem to thrive and do well on many "Carp Waters" even the ones with a high stocking density. I think Tench are one of the species that seem to be doing well in the modern Carp Fishing World. However as you said getting past the Carp to catch them may well be a problem.

[Phone]

All,

 

That photo picture is disgusting. Perhaps I'm getting a "better" albit less than rose colored, picture from your point of view.

 

I have a "feeling" for no particular reason I guess, the UK is moving in extreams. Your big carp are laughably taken out of the norm by unscrupulous feeding. And equally silly from here, you guys talk ad nauseam about the glory of fish to 14 ozs.

 

Even worse, I kinda like it!

 

Phone

[gozzer]

Thank you Steve.

I've been trying, (and obviously failing), to say exactly that. But I can easily get side tracked onto other issues, and lose sight of the original point, and then start to 'ramble' a bit.

This has only happened over the last 20 to 30yrs, so I understand if those who started fishing fairly recently, would think that it is normal or natural.

I've found that tench (if you can find them) do seem to thrive in these conditions. I think it's because they can survive as well as, (if not better) than some carp, in the low DO levels usually found there.

I keep hearing about large specimens of other fish being caught on these waters, but I think that apart from the preds, these are mostly old fish and near the end of their life. Only time will tell if I'm right.

 

The idea that these would make ideal match waters, and make it equal for all was soon seen to be false. I suppose they mistakenly thought the fish would spread evenly across the water, but they too become 'peggy'. The answer for some was to add even more fish!

 

I'm sad to hear of the water John describes, it proves it's still going on, and our rivers are still getting the same treatment.

 

I will repeat it (again ). I have nothing against those who wish to fish for carp, (I'll still take the micky though ). It's the massive, artificial spread of them, (both in number and area), over a relatively short period, and the effect on angling, the environment, and ecology of the waters that that are affected.

 

John.