E U. Should we stay or should we leave.

[Huge_Vitae]

And I'm laughing mine off. A Tory spouting that £350 million pound lie again. Why do they do that Huge? Almost but not quite as bad as Barry's cut and pastes from Facebook.

 

"Sir David Norgrove said he was "disappointed" the foreign secretary had, in an article, revived Leave campaigners' disputed referendum pledge of £350m a week extra for the NHS.

The watchdog said it was misleading and a "clear misuse" of figures.

Mr Johnson has replied to Sir David - accusing him of "wilful distortion".

In his 4,000 word piece for Daily Telegraph on Saturday, Mr Johnson wrote: "Once we have settled our accounts, we will take back control of roughly £350 million per week.

"It would be a fine thing as many of us have pointed out if a lot of that money went on the NHS."

Are you asking me why a Politician would give misleading or incorrect information? It's the fable of the fox and the Scorpion, would be the best I can offer up!

 

But, as always in such things it is far better to read the document itself than rely on articles carrying opinion, "roughly" is the part of the statement of HIS OWN OPINION which is pertinent.

 

Listening to a statistician chap this morning arguing the point where he was at pain to point out that the amount paid is not easily quantifiable due to rebate which is not fixed and is not applied in the same year that money is paid out, on best practise it is better to give an average amount over a number of years.

 

The ONS on its own page attempting to answer the question starts the explanation with "topic in the debate over whether or not the UK should remain a member of the EU, so here we take a closer look at the figures.

 

However, before we do, please note that none of the figures on the money flowing between the UK and EU are fully reflective of the total costs and benefits of EU membership as these are complex and difficult to quantify."

 

I would simply accept that the UK being one of the few countries which are long term net contributors to the EU, by the EU's own figures, membership costs the UK more than not being a member.

 

A lot of money could be saved by other methods which have not been nor are ever likely to be addressed, as a for instance Health Tourism, the simple problem is, where civil servants and govt. committees talk long term in figures running into billions of pounds they get into the mindset where a few million quid here and there can be forgotten.

 

Last point, in defending Boris, would be to say that the figure quoted is more likely to be correct now than last time it was thrown around simply because we pay in Euros.

[Huge_Vitae]

Sporty, if you gave me £10 one year and then I gave you £5 a year or so later and told you what you HAD to spend it on then the loss to you can be as much as £10 if you did not want or have any desire to spend your money in that way.

[Sportsman]

I have always understood that the "rebate" was deducted before the money was sent to the EU. The actual amount sent was around 100m a week less.

You might say that that is a lot of money and I may well agree with you, but if the case is so strong, why the need to lie about it?

 

Quote

"Plus, as Prof Ian Begg of the London School of Economics notes, the rebate is deducted before any payment is made, so it is simply wrong – and arguably, given the fuss that has been made about the question, deliberately untruthful – to say Britain “sends the EU £350m a week”. The Treasury actually remits just over £100m less a week."

Edited September 18, 2017 by Sportsman

[Huge_Vitae]

I have always understood that the "rebate" was deducted before the money was sent to the EU. The actual amount sent was around 100m a week less.

You might say that that is a lot of money and I may well agree with you, but if the case is so strong, why the need to lie about it?

 

Quote

"Plus, as Prof Ian Begg of the London School of Economics [/size]notes, the rebate is deducted [/size]before any payment is made, so it is simply wrong – and arguably, given the fuss that has been made about the question, deliberately untruthful – to say Britain “sends the EU £350m a week”. The Treasury actually remits just over £100m less a week."[/size]

Thinking simply, it is a rebate as you say, that is a return of money, you cannot return money you have not paid, if the rebate was taken away before payment it would be a discount.

 

It is very hard to find a 'correct' amount because it is far too complex. Consider that the Office for Budget Responsibility, the ONS and even the EU itself give vastly differing amounts as to amounts actually paid then you can see why differing figures are quoted dependant on what you wish to believe, rather like a person's decision on which newspaper to purchase.

 

I have not bothered to read the 2016 pink book but looking solely on the 2015/16 'argument' the EU states that the UK 'paid' 7.1 billion to the EU. Since the current argument involves ONS then I would point out that the ONS disagrees with the EU on this amount saying it is more like 9.9 billions, others would point out that the figures are an average of the five year period 2010 through 2014 and in the last two years of that period the UK contributions have increased by several billions.

 

And of course the ONS adds this to its report....

 

"Some commentators have previously quoted figures calculated from table 9.2 of the Pink Book. In an official letter written by the Deputy National Statistician for Economic Statistics, Jonathan Athow it is stated that “The information set down in table 9.2 of the Pink Book on the current account position does not give a full picture of the UK’s position with respect to the EU . . . We would therefore discourage users from using the figures in table 9.2 as a reflection of the UK’s contribution to the EU.”

 

So pick which bit you wish to believe if it supports what you want to believe.

[Huge_Vitae]

Our three Brexit negotiator heroes, David Davis the Brexit Bulldog, Boris 'both feet in mouth' Johnson and disgraced sleaze bag Liam Fox.

 

Heaven help us. No wonder we are the laughing stock of the world right now.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/how-european-press-responding-britain-s-brexit-vote

 

And, even Japan is deserting us as May flies to Canada to plead they replicate the trade deal we already have with them through the EU. How do you think that's going to go... who has more to offer Canada, the EU or the UK? Reality is biting. Fasten your seat belts and start counting the pennies. You'll need them if you are to afford Donald's chlorine washed chicken and hormone saturated beef (whilst our farmers go down the pan).

 

http://www.dw.com/en/brexit-japanese-companies-set-to-leave-london/a-40523696

Now I am slightly confused by this, firstly it doesn't take an awful lot of thought to see that a German newspaper might not support brexit! But mainly why you would consider an opinion in the New Statesman to be written without prejudice, especially in the light of your recent postings concerning 'billionaire newspaper owners" Danson is, should you wish to google it, sitting at #6 on the Worldwide newspaper moguls list, a media outlet in which he employs interns at the fantastic rate of £0.00 per hour, which until recently jointly owned with a Labour MP. No bias there then eh.

 

As a little tip for protecting your family from the poisoned meat and poultry products soon to flood the market, when you pick up items at the supermarket have a look for a label saying Country of Origin, if you are lucky you might be able to support local farmers, the majority of which that I know personally as they are neighbour's or relatives voted 'out'. I used the word voted being in the past.

[gozzer]

Our three Brexit negotiator heroes, David Davis the Brexit Bulldog, Boris 'both feet in mouth' Johnson and disgraced sleaze bag Liam Fox.

 

Heaven help us. No wonder we are the laughing stock of the world right now.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/how-european-press-responding-britain-s-brexit-vote

 

If you are going to post a link to an article that says 'we are the laughing stock of the world right now'. Then please use an article that is more recent than one issued over a year ago, just after the referendum was taken. A lot has happened since then, and very little of it was prophesised by the 'doom and gloom' merchants in their pre-referendum wailings.

 

The last figure I read was that our contribution to the EU was 315 billion, when the discount/rebate was taken off we had to pay 276 billion, so if chesters gave you a fiver back for your tenner Dave, you did better than we did with the EU!

 

John.

[big_cod]

Now everybody knows there ain't 350 million a week going to NHS and people know the pound is weak because of brexit now if as the people were told it was going to be a smooth exit the country would be much richer which actually is complete lie we need a final vote the leavers have nothing to worry there ain't a problem is there but there is a problem a very big one because if there was a another referendum the result be all most certainly be reversed and the leavers know it they wouldn't dare agree to another vote it may have to be imposed that may well come as it becomes more clear we are heading toaards a financial disaster .

Edited September 18, 2017 by big_cod

[chesters1]

Now everybody knows there ain't 350 million a week going to NHS and people know the pound is weak because of brexit now if as the people were told it was going to be a smooth exit the country would be much richer which actually is complete lie we need a final vote the leavers have nothing to worry there ain't a problem is there but there is a problem a very big one because if there was a another referendum the result be all most certainly be reversed and the leavers know it they wouldn't dare agree to another vote it may have to be imposed that may well come as it becomes more clear we are heading toaards a financial disaster .

Everyone has always known the nhs isnt going to get 350mil simply because it doesnt say anywhere on the bus it will!

 

How many referendums do you want ,you have had two ! Did you vote liberal ? NO? bang goes your chance ,the amount of people wanting to remain is the number of votes the liberals got! If you voted conservative ,labour or fringe party you voted to leave it cannot be more obvious

Edited September 18, 2017 by chesters1

[barry luxton]

big_cod, on 18 Sept 2017 - 18:26, said:

................................................................................. we need a final vote the leavers have nothing to worry there ain't a problem is there but there is a problem a very big one because if there was a another referendum the result be all most certainly be reversed and the leavers know it they wouldn't dare agree to another vote it may have to be imposed that may well come as it becomes more clear we are heading toaards a financial disaster .

 

 

really?

 

Not according to vince cable, even he has sussed out that Drunker is the wrong man for the job and all that drunker can promise is more Europe not less.

 

Do you really consider the u k electorate is going to vote for the euro, the europeon army, expansion by means of yet more desolate countries joining the gravy train expecting the u k's contributions to keep them in the custom that they would expect to receive and a more stringent federal super state lorded over by the likes of drunker.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/854241/brexit-news-latest-eu-uk-lib-dems-sir-vince-cable-jean-claude-juncker-europe-remain-latest

[big_cod]

 

 

really?

 

Not according to vince cable, even he has sussed out that Drunker is the wrong man for the job and all that drunker can promise is more Europe not less.

 

Do you really consider the u k electorate is going to vote for the euro, the europeon army, expansion by means of yet more desolate countries joining the gravy train expecting the u k's contributions to keep them in the custom that they would expect to receive and a more stringent federal super state lorded over by the likes of drunker.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/854241/brexit-news-latest-eu-uk-lib-dems-sir-vince-cable-jean-claude-juncker-europe-remain-latest

Bas really ! The express the brexit comic now what do you think the Germans think of boris it works both ways what gets me is the brexit mob want the Eu to fail why is that In case we fail when we leave all the express has done is slag the Eu they have got there way but they do need to try and keep the slagging up because there are more negatives with brexit than positives and with the shambolic brexit negotiations big business are crapping themselves in case they get it all wrong and if the likes of boris get there way god help us ,