Live-baiting is cruel and barbaric

[BoldBear]

I can understand the reasoning that fish would not feel pain in their mouths due to a requirement to feed on food that could cause pain.

 

But the question is would they feel pain along their spine region or any other part of their body? In that pain is a defence mechanism.so to alert the body that it is under attack I would say that fish would have this mechanism and so must feel pain.

 

Rabbit you are so wrong mate, its understandable for someone to have your beliefs, but you really do need to start reading up on the leading scientists findings on the cold bloodied fish senses and how their senses really work, not marine boilogists who have specialised in the study of warm bloodied creatures like whales and dolphins - which some anti-angling groups have done in the past; and I believe you when you say that you are not one of these anti-anglers; and that you are just concerned for the fishes welfare.

 

Dr. Alwyne wheeler also described the experiments that have been done on the fishes brain and how it has been found by himself and dozens of other notable scientists that the pain recepters were virtually non-existent in a fishes brain. But we could go on and on about what scientists in this field have found but you will still not believe them.

 

So ask yourself this question: If a worms primitive brain is known to be absent of pain recepters then how can a worm possibly know that if it gets down its hole fast enough to escape a bird (or human) it will escape being eaten or damaged; if it cant feel any pain?. Or how does it even know it may be in danger? but it does, as you will know if you have ever attempted catching worms on the lawn on a warm damp summer night. SURVIVAL INSTINCT not pain or inteligence.

I know a worm is different to a fish but it shows you that the cold bloodied fish which also has a very primitive brain development without these pain receptors does not need to feel pain to alert it that it is under attack.

I do however believe that fish can suffer from stress which is well known, but not pain.

 

Look at the experiences of millions of experienced anglers (and non-anglers) from all over the world about every day examples of fish not showing any stress a short time after being attacked and severely damaged by predators; then continuing to eat as though nothing has happened, even though they do show stress signs during the attack (not pain). (you can find a few examples in the above posts, but there are an inexhaustable number of these examples out there if you looked for them).

 

I do not use livebaiting much these days but it is not because I believe fish feel pain but because I have been having more success with artificials; and I don't have anything against anglers who use livebaiting, plus my experience over the years has enforced the belief that fish do not feel pain as we feel it. I have lost count of the examples that have shown this to be true.

Edited January 17, 2008 by BoldBear

[Peter Sharpe]

huge bits of fish were reduced to pussy holes

 

I'm surprised that little gem got past this board's rather over vigorous censorship software

[Ditchrat]

Maybe this was covered and I missed it. But I am surprised this has not been mentioned yet. As a student receiving degrees in both Marine Biology and Aquatic Biology I spent lots of time studing fish, and other animals. I learned their body types, anatomy and functions.

 

One of the first things we learned is how fishes mouths are designed to allow them to crush snails, bite down on spines, and grab objects that are painful to humans.

 

Some how I am not seeing the different between a pike getting impaled by a fishes spines and getting zapped by a hook

[Jeff S]

I purposefully avoided this thread. The arguments are all the same.

 

My grandfather taught me how to fish in Northern Wisconsin and spent many hours showing me tactics, weather, where to look for bait. Everything to include leaving no trace behind. Livebaiting for me has always been an accepted practice.

 

I moved to the UK in 2002 and learned how to fish over here. Talk about culture shock! I found Anglersnet quite by accident and read everything I could about pike, I finally caught one (using deads- Thank you Peter Waller). I argued-not debated- with a senior member of my piscatorial about throwing pike on the bank, knowing the benefits of having large pike around (Thank you Leon), then read how to care for pike (Thanks again Leon). I’ve read the arguments for pain, the pros and cons of using barbless over barbed, seen the benefits of using a priest (Catholic or no), and I’ve been to the anti sites.

 

My point is, educate yourself! Make up your own mind! I still go fishing, and with more care than I would have otherwise. I carry an unhooking mat, forceps, and needlenose pliers and sadly I still end up with a few fish that are deephooked I no longer purposefully use live fish for bait, I always crush the barbs on all of my barbed hooks, I replace the trebles on store bought lures, and I can’t get within 20 feet of an open tin of red maggots. Disgusting!

 

Ultimately, in moving to the UK I feel that I have a new found responsibility to return the fish that I catch in the same condition that they were caught and will continue the practice when I return.

[Guest Rabbit]

Rabbit you are so wrong mate, its understandable for someone to have your beliefs, but you really do need to start reading up on the leading scientists findings on the cold bloodied fish senses and how their senses really work, not marine boilogists who have specialised in the study of warm bloodied creatures like whales and dolphins - which some anti-angling groups have done in the past; and I believe you when you say that you are not one of these anti-anglers; and that you are just concerned for the fishes welfare.

 

Dr. Alwyne wheeler also described the experiments that have been done on the fishes brain and how it has been found by himself and dozens of other notable scientists that the pain recepters were virtually non-existent in a fishes brain. But we could go on and on about what scientists in this field have found but you will still not believe them.

 

So ask yourself this question: If a worms primitive brain is known to be absent of pain recepters then how can a worm possibly know that if it gets down its hole fast enough to escape a bird (or human) it will escape being eaten or damaged; if it cant feel any pain?. Or how does it even know it may be in danger? but it does, as you will know if you have ever attempted catching worms on the lawn on a warm damp summer night. SURVIVAL INSTINCT not pain or inteligence.

I know a worm is different to a fish but it shows you that the cold bloodied fish which also has a very primitive brain development without these pain receptors does not need to feel pain to alert it that it is under attack.

I do however believe that fish can suffer from stress which is well known, but not pain.

 

Look at the experiences of millions of experienced anglers (and non-anglers) from all over the world about every day examples of fish not showing any stress a short time after being attacked and severely damaged by predators; then continuing to eat as though nothing has happened, even though they do show stress signs during the attack (not pain). (you can find a few examples in the above posts, but there are an inexhaustable number of these examples out there if you looked for them).

 

I do not use livebaiting much these days but it is not because I believe fish feel pain but because I have been having more success with artificials; and I don't have anything against anglers who use livebaiting, plus my experience over the years has enforced the belief that fish do not feel pain as we feel it. I have lost count of the examples that have shown this to be true.

Jeez a tad patronising BB, I warn you I have just sat through three episodes of the Sopranos and I am not so sure at the moment if I care about you guys sticking hooks into live fish. However for the sake of continuity what I said and what I also borrowed from Chesters is that there is some sort of reaction to danger, thats it, now whether or not its pain or a reflex that does not include pain so what...its still evokes a need to survive, hence impaling is not so good for the livebait, I would hope that you might concede that point.

Dr Alwyne Wheeler will have to wait I have another 16 episodes of the Sopranos to get through, Oh and thanks for a well constructed post, minus the patronising bits of course.

[Guest Rabbit]

Maybe this was covered and I missed it. But I am surprised this has not been mentioned yet. As a student receiving degrees in both Marine Biology and Aquatic Biology I spent lots of time studing fish, and other animals. I learned their body types, anatomy and functions.

 

One of the first things we learned is how fishes mouths are designed to allow them to crush snails, bite down on spines, and grab objects that are painful to humans.

 

Some how I am not seeing the different between a pike getting impaled by a fishes spines and getting zapped by a hook

 

No ones is arguing that point regarding mouths and hooks ..are they? I am talking impaling hooks into the body of a live fish as whether or not fish will feel pain. You tell me you have the qualifications.

[John S]

No ones is arguing that point regarding mouths and hooks ..are they? I am talking impaling hooks into the body of a live fish as whether or not fish will feel pain. You tell me you have the qualifications.

 

If I might make an observation at this point....

 

Some years ago when I kept marine fish, one morning whilst feeding them I noticed that food eaten by one of my butterfly fishes was dropping out from somewhere. It was only when it turned round that I saw that a large chunk of its side had gone completely along with much of its internal organs - I strongly suspect that it got cornered during the night by the hermit crab I kept in the tank which then feasted on it.

 

It was however swimming about completely oblivious to its injuries, and feeding well - not something a creature in pain would do, and I think you will agree that the injuries would have been agony for any animal capable of feeling pain.

 

PS because of the extreme injuries to the fish it had to be PTS, it would have just starved to death otherwise

Edited January 18, 2008 by John S

[dant]

I examined the issue for myself years ago and nothing's changed. It's still okay by me, too.

 

I'll third those exact sentiments.

 

I've viewed this thread a few times but purposefully avoided contributing. I have and still do livebait fairly regularly mainly for Perch, where I use small lip-hooked baits upto around 4-5 inches on free roving tackle generally at close range. Also on occasions for Pike when I feel livebaits would have the edge and then I generally only lip-hook using a single treble. I keep my baits in an airated bucket and do not leave them on the hook for long periods of time.

I will continue to use a livebait with consideration for as long as I fish or until the choice is taken away from me..

[Ditchrat]

No ones is arguing that point regarding mouths and hooks ..are they? I am talking impaling hooks into the body of a live fish as whether or not fish will feel pain. You tell me you have the qualifications.

 

 

You miss the pint. Fish are adapted not to feel pain. They feel pressure on their bodies and in their mouths but only to the extent that it is a sensation.

[Newt]

You miss the pint. Fish are adapted not to feel pain. They feel pressure on their bodies and in their mouths but only to the extent that it is a sensation.

 

The vast majority of 'point misses' on these sorts of topic are more a matter of 'ignore what does not suit my argument' rather than the bog standard sort of missing the point.