E U. Should we stay or should we leave.

[gozzer]

I voted leave, it said leave. Not leave with negotiations. Not leave in several years. Not moan about it. LEAVE.

 

I suppose we'll have to keep voting till the government get what they want.

 

That's the problem with giving us working men the vote, no matter who you vote for the government always win.

 

Incidentally, where I live and worked (retired now) I know absolutely no working man that voted remain.

 

Sadly you're in the same boat as me mate.

We're classed as old, and not long for this world, so we shouldn't have had a say.

Almost as bad as being old is being from the North, being classed as thick, Northern, knuckle dragging, Neanderthals.

As for being 'working class', that is definitely a valid reason for not allowing us an opinion.

 

It would seem to me, from oft repeated 'arguments', that any prerequisite for being allowed a vote is, being under 50, regarding oneself as 'middle class' or above, having personal/financial ties to Europe, and preferring to holiday over there. There is another, that is to be focussed on the now, and blindly go in whatever direction the future EU decides to take us.

Fitting the description of any, or all of the above, gives you a right to vote, and to hold a valid opinion, as long as that opinion doesn't include leaving the EU.

 

John.

[*Ant*]

I've just stumbled across the following, but my instinct tells me it's just hogwash, surely???

 

..“What will actually happen if we stay in the EU” is a question no remainer will ever answer but here it is warts and all.
Check it out if you wish ——>>
1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020

[chesters1]

Probably best to read the treaty ,anyone listing it looks to be biased (as only bad things are shown) the same would be expected if someone from remain made a list

Take your pick

https://www.google.com/search?q=lisbon+treaty+full+text+pdf&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m

 

The usual legal double speak will be involved i have no doubt

[*Ant*]

I'll have a read into it later when I have more time.

[chesters1]

Good luck with that ,the lisbon treaty changed earlier treaties so you will need those as well to see what is changed

Its not written so mere mortals can make sense of it ,if they did they would encourage or discourage ,those in power want it all !you dont get power giving it to everyone

 

The biggest point though is if a law is passed in the EU its MANDATORY we implement it ,we only can change laws not covered by the EU ,if some think this is keeping our sovereignty they are sadly misinformed and its not new it was excepted when we joined!

Edited September 10, 2019 by chesters1

[Mikench]

I was a working man and voted remain. I would still do . We are still a sovereign nation. We can control our borders and immigration issues are not EU orientated and will continue even if we leave . I voted to go fishing today . However before I set off I decided where I was going, how I would get there, what I needed to take with me, what I might need in poor weather and how I was going to do it . Shame the leavers didn't think it through.

[Mikench]

I've just stumbled across the following, but my instinct tells me it's just hogwash, surely???

 

You are correct! It's a load of b******. It doesn't merit a response beyond that.

[gozzer]

I've just stumbled across the following, but my instinct tells me it's just hogwash, surely???

 

..“What will actually happen if we stay in the EU” is a question no remainer will ever answer but here it is warts and all.

Check it out if you wish ——>>

1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.

2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.

3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.

4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)

5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.

6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.

7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.

8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.

9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.

10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights

11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights

12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty

13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation

14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent

15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy

16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them

17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths

18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc

19: The UK loses control of its judicial system

20: The UK loses control of its international policy

21: The UK loses full control of its national policy

22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.

23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program

24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction

25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty

26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020

 

It depends on the interpretation of the wording of the Lisbon Treaty.

 

The 26 points on your post, while presented in a 'sensational' way, and not all compassing, are not too far removed from some of the aims set down on pages 3 and 4 of the Consolidated Texts in chesters link.

 

A couple of points,

 

Resolved to achieve the strengthening and the convergence of their economies and to establish an economic and monetary union including, in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty and of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, a single and stable currency.

 

'Resolved to facilitate the freedom of movement of persons'

 

It's a pain writing this out, I can't copy it, so I suggest if anyone is interested, they read it for themselves, you can then put your own interpretation on it.

 

John.

[big_cod]

Boris a man of the people

 

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brexit-disaster-capitalism-8-billion-bet-on-no-deal-crash-out-by-boris-johnsons-leave-backers/

Edited September 15, 2019 by big_cod

[Ken L]

I was a working man and voted remain. I would still do . We are still a sovereign nation. We can control our borders and immigration issues are not EU orientated and will continue even if we leave . I voted to go fishing today . However before I set off I decided where I was going, how I would get there, what I needed to take with me, what I might need in poor weather and how I was going to do it . Shame the leavers didn't think it through.

 

How exactly can we control our borders?

We have no legal means to stop welfare tourists and fraudsters from within the EU coming in to milk the UK.

There are also tens of millions of migrants from Africa, the Middle East and places like Afghanistan already in or on their way to Europe and while there are some restrictions on their movement while they remain foreign nationals, they have the same rights as any other EU citizen as soon as a member state decides to grant them citizenship - which is exactly what the Irish are doing with huge numbers of Congolese and Sweden is doing with Somalis.