Australian Carp Article

[poledark]

Phone, we (me and hundreds of others) catch carp all thro the winter in England. Been doing it for years and years. I regularly take water temps in the colder months (been doing it for 30+ years) and they are definitely feeding, not going thro a response. Some are known to have increased weight after being recaptured, and they also will take a surface bait on some days.

 

I am referring to sensible stock level carp, as well as the heavily stocked commercials.

 

Now for temps....almost every year for the period I have been measuring temps, the water drops below 40F for most of Dec/Jan and Feb, I start expecting it to rise to high 40's by March and once it reaches 50F , usually after the first couple of Sw winds, then I stop doing it on a daily basis. This is on a whole series of different lakes/pits , up to 50 acres or more. I do not have access to many deep (over 30ft) lakes, but most are in the 6 to 20 foot depth range. After an argument a couple of years ago I drove several miles each day for two weeks comparing the temp in a (so called) deep lake, and found no difference to my local (shallow) lakes.

 

Vagabond, what is your idea of a "few" carp coexisting with other fish? Some of the best Roach/Tench and Rudd fishing in England is to be had on waters holding a good head of carp. Every "carp" lake in Kent (there are very many) holds stocks of large silver fish, some are overun with bream and Rudd. If there is a problem with overstocking/breeding, then I would suggest it is with the silver fish, not the carp.

 

Oh, another thing, silver fish eat carp spawn. Seen them doing it several times, dashing in to the cloud of spawn/sperm and stuffing themselves with it.

 

Sorry to divert from the Oz topic, just thought a few facts might help the discussion along.

 

Den

Edited August 28, 2011 by poledark

[Sportsman]

Hmmm! 16% prefer the taste of carp to cod!!

 

If freshwater fish-farming takes off on a significant scale, numbers of waters now available to anglers may be lost to commercial fish production.

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/87...eplace-cod.html

 

 

So scientists want to stock a reservoir with big head or silver carp

 

Don't tell Gozzer

[Phone]

Den,

 

I have and have had a standing offer on the subject of "feeding" for well over 25 years. In the name of science, anyone, and I shall take their word as a gentleman, who harvests a carp from water below 50f (I'd like to say 45 - 47 really) with more than a speck or two in the gut, and some portition being digested will "win". I'll stop reporting the science and let traditional "carp commercials" persist.

 

NO TAKERS (although a lot of carp have been harvested)

 

"Feeding" is an attempt to acquire enough energy to survive. Carp don't in temperatures below 50f. Since you take and know how to take water temps you know the surface temp differs the temp throughout the water column.

 

You're spoofing ole Phone with the "weight gain" story. Biologically impossible if the water has remained below 50. (but I like you)

 

Vagabond,

 

Yes, of course the seasonal hatch is not included in the 7 month studies. Carp, without a stomach, have livers located along the back that are HUGE compaired with other fish species and this is where they store energy reserves. At the beginning of "winter(?)" the liver can be up to 40% larger than at spawn.

 

Phone

[Vagabond]

Vagabond, what is your idea of a "few" carp coexisting with other fish?

 

A density of carp such that one turning up in a day's roach fishing is rare enough to be a novelty.

 

NOT a density that guarantees one snatching at a maggot when I have only been fishing half an hour! I have taken to using quite weak hooks when roach fishing, so that if I hook something big, and once I am sure it is not a big tench, I can point the rod at the fish and pull until the hook straightens - that's better than a swim-disturbing fight of 15 minutes on roach tackle and use of a big net.

 

Still a situation I could do without.

 

....and a density that does not muddy the water. Two of my trout streams, both of which are tailwaters to a string of lakes, have been ruined since the lakes were overstocked with carp. Nowhere for the trout to spawn, see, once the redds are covered with silt which settles out from the overspill from the lakes. These are streams that produced decent and plentiful trout forty years ago.

 

The other trout streams in the same general catchment area are as good as ever, so don't try to blame changed farming patterns, abstraction, otters or tooth fairies.

.... silver fish eat carp spawn.

Well, if that were fresh news, I would give several cheers, but I could have told you that.

 

Practically ALL fish are opportunist feeders and will take fish spawn (sometimes even their own!) if they get a chance.

 

If you want useful FACTS, Den, then try looking at how the freshwater habitat as a whole has changed since the carp industry set to work on it.

[Phone]

Vagabond,

 

"Trout" is a broad brush. Not sure which trout you are talking about? Brown trout and (what we call Rainbow trout might be different than what you fish for? If so, forgive my ignorance.

 

In breeding areas after the female has completed the rudd, it has been fertilized, and she recovers it with sand and gravel it's a done deal. Trout eggs can be harvested and will hatch in a sealed temperature controlled plastic bag without adding additional oxygen.

 

While we don't agree on the exclusivity of "carp muddy the water" issue, for sure, I can't see how carp change the trout hatch? No question a prisintine trout lake or stream doesn't need carp. But carp and trout co-exist rather nicely. It's the fishermen who are stressed. I too prefer a "clear water" trout lake where I can see that dimension of nature. Why it is not clear - well - ? Often it is because an abundance of anglers disrupt the females in spawn, refuse to take responsibility - and blame the carp.

 

Phone

Edit: my spelling/typing is awful - even after editing I'm sure I've missed something

Edited August 28, 2011 by Phone

[gozzer]

So scientists want to stock a reservoir with big head or silver carp

 

Don't tell Gozzer

 

I've seen it already, on the conservation forum Dave. Another potential environmental disaster if it works. Still, it might mean that there is something different too exploit.

 

I'm surprised at your choice of words Den, " most british species can (and do) live happily with carp".

I've never seen a "happy" fish, or even one that was unhappy for that matter.

I have seen other species coexist/survive, and even thrive with carp, but when the carp are in much lower numbers than we now have.

It seems that I have to keep labouring the point that it's not the presence of carp in a water, but their introduction, (usually in large numbers) that is the problem. The same with barbel, bream etc.

 

A question for those who can't see a problem with the stocking policies we've experienced over the last 20 odd years.

 

Since a water can only provide enough food for a finite weight of fish, which species would you like to diminish, or be replaced by the introduction of a new species?

 

John.

[Bobj]

Den, Bobj,

 

No argument from me. Carp can survive up to 7 months under the stressed conditions you represent. 50 F or slightly lower carp can only digest up to 7% of what they injest. Not near enough to sustain life or reproduce. At some point during the year they have to have some warmer water.

Den,

 

They, carp, are not "feeding" in these cold water. They are mearly going through instinstive exercises without a feeding response. You're lucky (or hard headed) to catch carp in cold water, not skilled. BTW, the coldest a reasonably deep lake (3m) can get is 39 F at or near the bottom. That's when water is most dense - or - why ice forms on the top.

 

Bobj,

 

We (North America) too have examples of "carp gone wild". Too (maybe "to"?) bad really. Are you suggesting the reason the river dried up was the carp? No question serious controls must be instituted when they go "bonkers" (through no fault of their own really). You have me at a HUGE disadvantage since OZ is on my "bucket list" but as yet not accomplished. NO idea here.

Phone

 

I said that the river deteriorated to a series of mud pools, not 'dried up' as you mentioned. Yes, there was a 15 year drought in the intervening years but the carp were so prolific that they undermined the banks to such an extent that when a few floods did eventually replenish the river, river red gums toppled in to block the river in numerous places, thus making chains of mud pools.

 

In the late 1880s/90s, the river was navigable during the annual flood seasons by river paddle steamers.

I made reference to the mighty goodoo, earlier; this is the aboriginal term for the murray cod, a most respected fish, beauty, fighting and eating wise, as averse to the introduced carp.

 

On your bucket list to fish Oz??? Mate!!! Try the Northern Territory, The Kimberlies, or northern Queensland for the barramundi and saratoga in the billabongs!! Vagabond will surely agree

[Ken L]

Not forgetting the sooties. They may not grow huge but the are pugnacious little devils and are guarenteed to put a smile on your face with light tackle - just remember not to wade out....

Edited August 28, 2011 by Ken L

[Phone]

Bobj,

 

A tragic story for sure. No doubt carp exaserbated the problems - as for cause - - - well, I just have to believe you. I don't know better.

 

Again, you have me at a HUGE disadvantage. In truth, I'm not even sure where "Oz" is. I just took a stab at Australia. We don't call it "Oz" over here (trying to be AN friendly). Yes, yes, and yes - I'd love to fish all of the above places - - - and NOT for carp. We have plenty of carp in the US (North America).

 

Phone

 

While at it, I don't know exactly how to use the word "whilst". But I LOVE it. Wish it was in American English. Notice I'm using it frequently (probably wrong?)

[Bobj]

Not forgetting the sooties. They may not grow huge but the are pugnacious little devils and are guarenteed to put a smile on your face with light tackle - just remember not to wade out....

 

Mate, they are great little antagonists.