Who Ruined Britain

[The Flying Tench]

Very true Chesters. In AD 303 Diocletian ordered the destruction of all christian literature, and virtually succeeded. In the late 4th century Constantine (Emperor and head of the sun-worshipping sect) needed christians to support him politically, so ordered new copies of the NT to be made.

 

Constantine was not the champion of christianity that he is portrayed by ecclesiastical spin - he was more like Gordon Brown trying to get the Lib-Dems onside.

 

New "copies" gave the opportunity for lots of editorial "revisions" to bring the NT writings into line with both Mithraism and Roman sun worship (one of the revisions included changing Jesus Christ's birthday from Jan 6th to Dec 25th, so all three religions could have the same feast day) The opportunity was no doubt taken to slant the NT so as to apparently "fulfill" OT prophesies.

 

Vagabond, are you saying that copies of the NT were produced giving a supposed date for Christ's birth? I've never heard this, and I can't imagine where they would have put it in!

 

I think you are saying that Constantine ordered the new revisions of the NT. I hadn't appreciated that. Certainly interesting, though not of huge relevance to modern biblical scholarship, I suspect, as we have complete versions of the NT from as early as 350AD - and many partial texts from much earlier, the earliest I think being 130AD.

[The Flying Tench]

Your local bishops must be quite a "progressive" lot then, John! This sort of thing tends to put backs up in more traditional quarters:

 

"It is important to note that the emergent church does not believe that anything can be known with any certainty, especially God, who according to the emergent church is nothing but a mystery."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church

 

It seems the major problem faced by the established church is how to modernise and become more relevant without ending up like the sort of movement parodied by "Not the Nine o'Clock News" back in the 80s - with the trendy vicar saying "It's not so much a case of 'Get thee behind me Satan' as 'Come in, me old mate, and have a cup of tea!'"

 

I am puzzled by parts of the the Wikipedia article - I can only say it is either a very odd article, or there is a whole strand of emerging church I have not come across. For example, I get a quarterly magazine from a small research team in the Church Army, and each issue gives a write-up on some example of emerging church in the Uk. I have now had 38 issues. Most are evangelical (bible based) and while they may be a bit 'looser' in this than some evangelicals, they would all accept a normal christian creed. A few are neo-monastic (Celtic christianity etc) and the same thing can be said of them.

 

One of the strange things is that the churches which are very free with regard to liturgy and ritual are usually conservative with respect to doctrine, whereas those which are strict with regards the ritual are sometimes conservative but sometimes quite liberal. I am afraid the 'Not the Nine O'clock News' people' possibly didn't understand such things.

 

Having said that, yes, I agree, if what you are saying is that the task of the established church is to modernise and get relevant without losing it's core message and values.

[The Flying Tench]

lets think errr having nothing is good jesus said that ,give it to me i'l use it to save other souls

hmmm looks like demons have got a hold ,at least 20 grand to completely cure you maybe more if more than one demon is present.

blimey you look a little "broken" 6 months of godding followed by 6 months of outpatient bible reading should shift that ,ten grand please

 

looks good! and all tax free

 

now if i can get you to wave hands ,shout jesus loves me with the occasional swoon when i touch you its america for me

 

Chesters, can you clarify please. Is this a joke? Or is it just slander? Or do you actually believe that groups like Ellel charge large amounts of money before they will pray for the sick?

[Huge_Vitae]

Vagabond, are you saying that copies of the NT were produced giving a supposed date for Christ's birth? I've never heard this, and I can't imagine where they would have put it in!

 

"Christmas Day was changed by Emperor Constantine as it was his birth date."

 

I have heard this several times, I think it's one of those 'facts' which get muted about.

 

Personally I don't believe any of it, including the bible.

 

Emperor Constantine (The Great) who was responsible for the acceptance of Religious Tolerance in the Roman Empire was born in February. If he did change the Date of Christmas it was probably to celebrate the Winter solstice, or at least, the day the Romans thought was the winter solstice (it actually occurs between December 20~23 in the Northern Hemisphere.) and as such celebrated the "Rebirth of the Sun"

 

Factually speaking, the bible contradicts itself in several places regarding the birth, life and death of Jesus.

 

Our current year, 2008 is based on a Medieval attempt to work out the date of Jesus birth. This was probably done as an attempt to include divinity to a Monarch, William the Conqueror claimed Jesus, Adam and Eve etc in his blood line and as such the birth-date was 'recorded'.

[chesters1]

Chesters, can you clarify please. Is this a joke? Or is it just slander? Or do you actually believe that groups like Ellel charge large amounts of money before they will pray for the sick?

i'm saying you dont get huge estates for nothing

"contributions" or "donations" can be taken many ways ,its bad enough the government part fund these people

look at the properties the christian church has do you think god sent gold to raise them all? yes there were donations but "passing the plate" was and is a demand for money ,ofcourse even the poorest had to "tip" the clergy it was done in front of their neighbours and pride was at stake.

failure to attend church (and thus keep your money for more worthwhile things like food etc) was most probably condemned by the vicar with threats of being struck off the waiting list to heaven or further back a bit of burning ,these are no more than demands for money in any ones terms.

the tv evangelists are a great advert for paying for prayer and healing it maybe not up front but someones coughing up somewhere ,you dont build huge ministries and run tv stations on fresh air even gods fresh air.

 

 

healing

 

"How Much will it Cost?

 

XXXXX do not make any charge for Healing Retreats so as not to hinder anyone from receiving help. However, operating our Centres does cost money and there are bills that have to be paid! We invite those coming on a Retreat to donate whatever they can afford towards meeting some of our expenses. How much is given is left to their own discretion. For your guidance, the cost of running a Healing Retreat works out at about £150 per person. This is higher than the cost of a Training Course because the costs of food and accommodation for the Ministry Team also has to be covered. Sometimes an individual may make a donation; at other times a local church may wish to make a gift towards the cost of a Retreat"

 

although there is a mention of it being free to some there is also a hint to how much at least is expected ,note healing is more than training ,sick people are easier to manipulate and desperate enough to stump up all with no guarantee it will work!!!

 

the "training" (how the hell can a diploma from a ministry on luke11 get you anything) is also very lucrative ,i may just set up one myself on grass at least it exists ,and ofcourse to ensure the money comes in parts have a mandatory stay (with all the costs) at the err training center ,no stay no completee diploma!!

 

theres even inter bits of the bible infighting going on (my scriptures are better than yours) look for a familiar name

http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/onc...ans_nothing.htm

 

 

make up your own mind if you believe this crap

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1...annel=741918377

 

hopefully pedo's using the excuse a demon got me would be treated with the same scorn i have.i personally would have him and all his ilk committed but if he wishes to stroll up the road to undemomise me (i must have one because i disagree with them) he can try! its closer than america.

Edited October 16, 2008 by chesters1

[corydoras]

Chesters, can you clarify please. Is this a joke? Or is it just slander? Or do you actually believe that groups like Ellel charge large amounts of money before they will pray for the sick?

[RANT]I'll go further. Religion is a scam, period.

You said, "Having said that, yes, I agree, if what you are saying is that the task of the established church is to modernise and get relevant without losing it's core message and values."

 

How is it possible to 'modernise' and 'get relevant' the mythology of a few bronze age middle eastern tribes?

 

Do you accept that the universe is some 15-20 billion years old?

Do you accept that the solar system is some 4.5 - 5 billion years old?

Does the church recognise the fact that human beings and the apes have a common ancestor? It cannot because that means that we were not created by any god, it means that there is no 'original sin' so god had no need to send himself down to redeem us.

 

Why do we not see the 'established church' calling out scumbags like 'pastor' Fred Phelps and his Westbro Babtist Church? Why do we not see the established church calling out the likes of The Discovery Institute who are hell bent on destroying the American Public School system with their ridiculous creationist ideology. Why don't we see the established church taking the Catholic Church in Rome to task over it crazy inhuman dogma against contraception, the result of which is hundreds of thousands being infected by AIDS, because using a condom is 'sinful'.

 

Once I see the nice, 'moderate' christians take on and shout down the loonies in their midst, the same way that they ask of moderate muslims do with their loonies I may just have a little more respect for them.

 

I wish that all you christians, moslems and jews would get your friggin' act together, put your silly bronze age scribblings away and let the rest of us, the MAJORITY on this planet have our bl00dy planet back.

[/RANT]

[gozzer]

I've said on here often enough that I am an atheist. I have also said that sometimes I can feel a twinge of envy for those that have 'found' a 'belief'.

When I look at the alternative I can see why some 'need' to believe.

 

The thought that we are just the chance meeting of just the right components to start life. Followed by the good fortune that, (in our case) this happened on a planet that just happened to be the right distance from it's Sun. The conditions on this planet just happened to develop in a way that not only allowed this 'life' to flourish but also evolve.

We as humans are no more than a chance occurrence, an accident if you like. As such we have no real importance other than that which we give ourselves.

We still have the basic, 'continuation of the species' instinct that all life has, but other than that we have no purpose.

All that we think we have achieved, science, art, literature, music etc, is nothing more than something we have devised to keep us busy and amused between birth and death.

 

Most don't like to think of things too deeply, and just get on with trying to live the life we have created, some just accept things, but some 'need' to find answers.

When faced with this, is it any wonder some need to find a belief, a meaning, and clutch at any straw while trying?

 

I know this is a very simplistic version of events but I think you'll get my 'drift'.

 

John.

[DavyR]

All that we think we have achieved, science, art, literature, music etc, is nothing more than something we have devised to keep us busy and amused between birth and death.

 

Well, that would appear to be a bit of a waste of time if it were solely for our own amusement. The key, though, is that succeeding generations benefit from all that good stuff, so it doesn't go to waste.

 

That's why, although I too am an aetheist (humanist, really), I like the Biblical idea of the world being given to Man to use responsibly and pass on, like a garden ought to be, in a better state than we found it.

 

That's also why I've got a lot of time for environmentalists, who are mostly trying to stop the planet being wrecked, and not a lot of time for capitalists who really do live as though everything begins and ends with them.

 

Here endeth the lesson.

[gozzer]

Well, that would appear to be a bit of a waste of time if it were solely for our own amusement. The key, though, is that succeeding generations benefit from all that good stuff, so it doesn't go to waste.

 

But Davy, if we as a species have no purpose, then it follows that succeeding generations will be the same.

We have to perpetuate the 'myth' that we are 'special' to give us a 'reason' to exist. So any "benefit" that future generations get from us, would also be of little or no importance, other than to help them 'pass the time'.

 

John.

[DavyR]

But Davy, if we as a species have no purpose, then it follows that succeeding generations will be the same.

We have to perpetuate the 'myth' that we are 'special' to give us a 'reason' to exist. So any "benefit" that future generations get from us, would also be of little or no importance, other than to help them 'pass the time'.

 

John.

 

"Passing the time" is a very dull phrase to express a delight in music, or nature, or oh, go on then sex, or umm...fishing, isn't it? Non-religious people can experience (I'm guessing here as it's impossible to measure) levels of awe, happiness, ecstasy or joy just as intense as religious people. The only difference I can see is a belief in an afterlife, which I personally can well do without. The thought of personal extinction doesn't worry me at all (and probably still wouldn't if I'd never had kids).

 

Anyway, we are of course "special". How else would we act as good caretakers/gardeners for the earth? Can't see chimps or orang-utangs being much use at that. Mind you, they probably wouldn't make such a good job of fouling it up, either...