Who Ruined Britain

[corydoras]

Non-religious people can experience (I'm guessing here as it's impossible to measure) levels of awe, happiness, ecstasy or joy just as intense as religious people.

Quite right Davy, at least I can. Make the most of life because this is it folks, this is not a dress rehearsal.

[poledark]

Not a believer myself, I like the idea that my genes are continuing to add to the further evolution of mankind through my grandkids.

 

But then I look around me (see my signature).................

 

Den

[corydoras]

Not a believer myself, I like the idea that my genes are continuing to add to the further evolution of mankind through my grandkids.

 

But then I look around me (see my signature).................

 

Den

All evidence of evolution and common descent, not one shred of it for any creator, of any kind. My Mind is open, if someone can prove to me that the god of abraham, or any other deity exists then I'll accept the fact. I still wouldn't worship the monster though.

[The Flying Tench]

healing

 

"How Much will it Cost?

 

XXXXX do not make any charge for Healing Retreats so as not to hinder anyone from receiving help. However, operating our Centres does cost money and there are bills that have to be paid! We invite those coming on a Retreat to donate whatever they can afford towards meeting some of our expenses. How much is given is left to their own discretion. For your guidance, the cost of running a Healing Retreat works out at about £150 per person.

 

Thanks, Chesters. I had understood you to be saying earlier that Ellel expected people to pay thousands of pounds before they would pray for their healing, and I felt this was libellous. You have now quoted their literature and made it clear that they do nothing of the sort - prayer for healing is free, though they ask for a voluntary donation towards the cost of accommodation etc. That's what I would expect, and fits in with my personal experience of them.

[The Flying Tench]

[RANT]I'll go further. Religion is a scam, period.

 

To it's a 'scam' surely implies that it's salesmen - people like me - don't believe it ourselves. I assure you that is not the case.

 

Do you accept that the universe is some 15-20 billion years old?

Do you accept that the solar system is some 4.5 - 5 billion years old?

Does the church recognise the fact that human beings and the apes have a common ancestor?

 

I am not a scientist, but based on what I have read (mainly by christians) I believe all these - as do nearly all committed christians with any knowledge of science.

 

It cannot because that means that we were not created by any god, it means that there is no 'original sin' so god had no need to send himself down to redeem us.

 

I do not understand why you think that belief in evolution goes against belief in an ultimate creator. Even Fred Hoyle, certainly no believer, said when the evidence for the 'big bang' became strong that it looked as if some Intelligence wanted us to be here. Is it such a big step to believe in a God?

 

Why do we not see the established church calling out the likes of The Discovery Institute who are hell bent on destroying the American Public School system with their ridiculous creationist ideology.

 

Most of the bishops are not scientifically qualified, and I think they see this kind of issue handled best by those with relevant knowledge. But I have just read 2 books by christian geneticists - 'The Language of God' by Francis Collins, leader of the human genome project (he was previously an atheist, but became a christian in his twenties) , and 'Creation or Evolution - Do we have to choose?' by Denis Alexander, a geneticist who now heads the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion. Both argue strongly for Darwinian evolution and against the creationists. And I shall be speaking on the subject of Science and Faith in my own small church in a few weeks time, and will say the same thing. But I won't shout and use abusive language, I shall simply put the case as well as I can!

 

I wish that all you christians, moslems and jews would get your friggin' act together, put your silly bronze age scribblings away and let the rest of us, the MAJORITY on this planet have our bl00dy planet back.

 

Now, now!

[/RANT]

Edited October 16, 2008 by The Flying Tench

[Newt]

It always amazes me how similar the aggressive fundamentalist Christian and the aggressive anti-religion Atheist attitudes really are.

 

The cant, invective, and intolerance of other viewpoints of both sides point to them basically being brothers under the skin; a "My way or the highway", sort of thing.

 

John (flying tench) - it sounds from some posts on here that Clergy in the UK need to be paid a hazardous occupation bonus and especially Clergy who would walk some sort of tolerant middle ground.

 

When this topic first began to drift into more religion than politics I thought it was going seriously off topic but after a re-read of the topic title and some of the comments, I begin to think it may be directly on point.

[corydoras]

It always amazes me how similar the aggressive fundamentalist Christian and the aggressive anti-religion Atheist attitudes really are.

 

The cant, invective, and intolerance of other viewpoints of both sides point to them basically being brothers under the skin; a "My way or the highway", sort of thing.

 

John (flying tench) - it sounds from some posts on here that Clergy in the UK need to be paid a hazardous occupation bonus and especially Clergy who would walk some sort of tolerant middle ground.

 

When this topic first began to drift into more religion than politics I thought it was going seriously off topic but after a re-read of the topic title and some of the comments, I begin to think it may be directly on point.

I wouldn't get so hacked off if they would actually discuss the matter in an intellectually honest way, Newt.

These people beleive in a supernatural being, that I can see no evidence for. Present me with evidence, the kind of evidence that would stand up in a court of law. When you ask for this they bleat 'you can't prove god doesn't exist'. The burden of proof is on them, they are the ones making the outlandish claims, not me.

 

Like I say, I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my bleedin' brains are in danger of falling out. As far as I am concerned one can believe whatever the hell one likes, as long as you do not harm anyone by your beliefs. Unfortunately many of the looney fundie branches of christianity do IMMENSE harm, but the 'moderates' seldom bring them to task, it's left to us non-beleivers to do that.

 

Why aren't the moderates in your own country screaming blue murder at the likes of Fred Phelps, The Discovery Institute and those crazy 'christian' sects who would rather their children died than take them to a doctor. Why is it left to the FFRF and the ACLU?

 

Now, now is not an intellectually honest response.

Edited October 16, 2008 by corydoras

[The Flying Tench]

John (flying tench) - it sounds from some posts on here that Clergy in the UK need to be paid a hazardous occupation bonus and especially Clergy who would walk some sort of tolerant middle ground.

 

When this topic first began to drift into more religion than politics I thought it was going seriously off topic but after a re-read of the topic title and some of the comments, I begin to think it may be directly on point.

 

[gozzer]

"Passing the time" is a very dull phrase to express a delight in music, or nature, or oh, go on then sex, or umm...fishing, isn't it? Non-religious people can experience (I'm guessing here as it's impossible to measure) levels of awe, happiness, ecstasy or joy just as intense as religious people. The only difference I can see is a belief in an afterlife, which I personally can well do without. The thought of personal extinction doesn't worry me at all (and probably still wouldn't if I'd never had kids).

 

Anyway, we are of course "special". How else would we act as good caretakers/gardeners for the earth? Can't see chimps or orang-utangs being much use at that. Mind you, they probably wouldn't make such a good job of fouling it up, either...

 

It maybe a dull phrase but, if we have no reason for being here, then it's just something we've made to amuse or entertain (is that better) ourselves. It's not essential to our survival, only to the way of life we have created for ourselves.

The extinction of the human race would have little effect on the rest of the world.(except maybe a positive one).

 

Chimps and Orangutans don't need to be caretakers/gardeners. They live with and within the confines of nature. Their numbers are dependant on the prevailing conditions. There are good periods and they thrive, and in bad ones they don't, it's the 'usual balance of nature'. (until we interfere that is)

 

We on the other hand, try to manipulate nature to suit a lifestyle that we have created, in the belief that we are 'special', and have a 'right' to do so.

Any caretakering(?) or gardening that we do is merely to sustain that lifestyle.

 

If we have no purpose, or there is no 'Grand Plan', then whatever we think we achieve, means nothing, other than what we 'believe' it means.

 

John.

Edited October 16, 2008 by gozzer

[Huge_Vitae]

When this topic first began to drift into more religion than politics I thought it was going seriously off topic but after a re-read of the topic title and some of the comments, I begin to think it may be directly on point.

WHAT...........

 

A thread remaining 'on topic'

 

Is this a first for AN?