E U. Should we stay or should we leave.

[big_cod]

BOOM !!!! Poor old boris his holiday period is history before he knows it from a majority of 1 to minus 43 he certainly knows his stuff .

 

And Jacob Rees smogg lounging about like a smug toffee nosed toff thinking he is clever up yours Jacob your a disgrace for the working man ****s never .

Edited September 4, 2019 by big_cod

[Phone]

All,

 

Since 2016 it has been nip and tuck - US vs UK.

 

You win - I now belive you are politically to far gone for even the U.S. to catch up. I honestly believe you have few olive branches and the "new" England will be determined by unsheathed swords. I guess it is a benefit you prefer anachary with knives rather than guns.

 

Phone

[Mikench]

We will never agree. If you like Cummings you must be deluded. He was assessed as unfit to hold public office yet here he is effectively in charge of No 10. He is peripheral. What is currently happening is beyond my experience.

 

John I don't see remaining in Europe as any form of utopia just as leaving isn't . I can disagree with many aspects of Europe and the way it's run . It's guiding principles may have worked for 6 countries but do not for 28. The Euro was a good idea and the financial standards required were capable of being met by Germany, France and maybe Holland but not by Eire, Greece, Portugal and Italy. Their admission was a political decision to ensure that the euro had enough impetus to make it work. We never joined.

 

However I felt and still do that we should remain and to be crude p*** out of the tent rather than in it. I was appalled at the lies and deceit made and shown by both sides in the run up to the referendum but considered the Tory brexiteers to be worse . The EU has many good points and on balance I would rather remain than leave particularly without a deal. As I seem to remember saying earlier in this thread you cannot really get divorced and move on without a deal of some kind. There has to be a continued working relationship. We can only be a Island geographically. I have many continental friends, french mainly, who feel the same as I do and would like reform to be from within.

 

People are entitled to their opinions and the reasons for voting to leave but I doubt many thought we would crash out without a deal some years later having spent the billions we might have saved trying to do so . Brexit has brought division, disunity, enmity and likely economic hardships. Far right views are prevalent and this nasty party is indicative of many. It has no endearing qualities again imo.We could well see a breakup of the UK who knows. It's a gigantic gamble and not one I was and remain unwilling to make.

 

Poiliticians should be admirable, selfless individuals not liars and seekers of self agrandissement . Were they ever; mmm a matter for further debate.

[Ken L]

Draining the swamp 21 traitorous MPs at a time.

All is not lost.

[big_cod]

Draining the swamp 21 traitorous MPs at a time.

All is not lost.

Ken to say all is not lost from a majority of 1 to minus 43 if there was ever a PM in serious deep trouble its boris Johnson and his merry men for a new PM to lose his first 4 consecutive votes against him is truly a record on its own and the man feeding him Dominic Cummings will with out double send him to his political grave this government is in office but not in power .

 

And the supposed election bribe its a farce practically every single department which are going to get extra funding are still worse off in real terms than they were in 2010 they might kid the blind and gullible they are being ripped to bits as we speak on there supposed election bribe the austerity in the last 10 years of this Tory government was a political decision not a fiscal one .

 

Plus this election cash suddenly available when every single economic forecast says a no deal Brexit will costs us billions and they want to give cash away like confetti they have put themselves into corner they cant get out of fools .

 

As we speak Damian green is begging to have the 21 MPS who were cast off into the wilderness reinstated as he says these are very moderate Tory MPS with true conservative values but there is one slight problem they aint far right nationalist.

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnsons-personality-has-made-the-brexit-crisis-worse-11802482

Edited September 5, 2019 by big_cod

[gozzer]

 

John I don't see remaining in Europe as any form of utopia just as leaving isn't . I can disagree with many aspects of Europe and the way it's run . It's guiding principles may have worked for 6 countries but do not for 28. The Euro was a good idea and the financial standards required were capable of being met by Germany, France and maybe Holland but not by Eire, Greece, Portugal and Italy. Their admission was a political decision to ensure that the euro had enough impetus to make it work. We never joined.

 

However I felt and still do that we should remain and to be crude p*** out of the tent rather than in it. I was appalled at the lies and deceit made and shown by both sides in the run up to the referendum but considered the Tory brexiteers to be worse . The EU has many good points and on balance I would rather remain than leave particularly without a deal. As I seem to remember saying earlier in this thread you cannot really get divorced and move on without a deal of some kind. There has to be a continued working relationship. We can only be a Island geographically. I have many continental friends, french mainly, who feel the same as I do and would like reform to be from within.

 

People are entitled to their opinions and the reasons for voting to leave but I doubt many thought we would crash out without a deal some years later having spent the billions we might have saved trying to do so . Brexit has brought division, disunity, enmity and likely economic hardships. Far right views are prevalent and this nasty party is indicative of many. It has no endearing qualities again imo.We could well see a breakup of the UK who knows. It's a gigantic gamble and not one I was and remain unwilling to make.

 

Poiliticians should be admirable, selfless individuals not liars and seekers of self agrandissement . Were they ever; mmm a matter for further debate.

 

Mike I used the word 'Utopia' as a balance against those in the remain camp, yourself included, who have used it to describe what they wrongly think we in the leave camp expect if/when we exit the EU. It's a part of the hyperbole that has been a constant in the rhetoric of the remain camp.

You appear to agree with me that the EU has grown to an extent that it no longer works as good as it did when we first joined the EEC. IMO, It's morphed into what I can only liken to an amoeba, stretching out to engulf the surrounding countries, until it all becomes 'the one'.

The attitude that 'one size fits all' has, to my mind, been proven not to work. As you say, what might have worked with 6 nations, struggles with 27. there are too many differences, political, cultural, and economical. The change from a small mainly economically beneficial trading group, to a large politically lead 'animal', that I can see leading to a large Federal 'super' state, is a future that I find as scary,and as unacceptable, as you seem to find 'Brexit'.

I don't believe that it is possible to change it from within, Macron and Co, will see to that. Remember, you have to be careful when 'p*** out of a tent' that you aren't p***ing into a strong Gallic wind. That will only result in you standing in your own p***, inside a wet, stinking tent.

You might give a different answer because of your history, but when I've asked people if we hadn't have joined in the 70s, but had the choice to join now, would they agree to joining. The question was put to over a dozen mainly remain voters, and all but one said they wouldn't join now, but now we are too tied into the 'union' to get out, (one person actually used the word 'escape').

 

It looks like my fears when all this started, that we will not exit the EU, are becoming a sad reality. It's typical of those who have constantly accused the leave camp of lies and deceit, are now applauding the tactics of the remain camp. Those who believe that this is merely about stopping a no deal, need to take their blinkers off. It's all about stopping the UK from leaving at any cost.

 

Three years of turmoil, caused not by Brexit', but by the uncertainty stirred up by those who refuse to accept that a majority of the voting public, wanted to leave. The hypocrisy shown by the 'quisling' like actions of sections of Parliament, who for a number of reasons, (IMO, mainly personal financial/ political advancement reasons) will say or do anything to prevent our leaving.

You mention that leaving could well cause the break up of the UK.The remain group are relying on the SNP to get acts through Parliament, and their main/sole objective is to break up the union! They don't want us to leave, because it would make it harder for Scotland to re-join the EU if we did.

 

I think you should move your last sentence to the 'Have a Laugh' section Mike, because I don't know in what world that would happen. Not this one, that's for sure, no further debate needed.

Poiliticians should be admirable, selfless individuals not liars and seekers of self agrandissement . Were they ever; mmm a matter for further debate.

 

John.

[Huge_Vitae]

We will never agree. If you like Cummings you must be deluded. He was assessed as unfit to hold public office yet here he is effectively in charge of No 10. He is peripheral. What is currently happening is beyond my experience.

Is that a reply to me?

[Mikench]

Probably but like the whole Brexit debacle one cannot remember how we got here. I am heartily sick of the whole thing. My final comment on the subject pending the final outcome is that nobody imo voted to leave the EU without a deal ie a sensible agreement for our future relationship and those of the millions living and working here from Europe and vice versa. One cannot leave anything without consequences of some sort.

 

The Buffoon has even been abandoned by his own brother. He will surely have the shortest reign as PM in history. By the way Macron is largely despised in France and will be gone when the next presidential elections take place.

[Ken L]

[*Ant*]

Broken Promises.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPcmebRH904

Edited September 5, 2019 by *Ant*